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Guckulåt Efter Josefs Lars (continued)


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#19 David Barnert

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Posted 29 December 2005 - 07:49 PM

Thanks for all this theory Doug. So after all my first guess about the "A drone" was not so wrong

Not so fast. Or, as they say, don't believe everything you read on the internet.

I disagree with keeper's post on so many levels that I was going to just sit on my hands and not say anything, but I feel I need to keep others from getting drawn in.

The words "tonic" and "dominant" do not refer to notes, but to chords. During the medieval period, when the plagal modes had relevance to the way music was put together, nobody thought in terms of chords.

The fact that the note A held as a drone throughout the tune sounds better than D does not make it a tonic. It just means that most of the tune is harmonized with A chords and D minor chords, both of which contain A, but only one of which contains D.

I still maintain that the tune is in D minor (look how it ends), not dorian or any other mode. The fact that it starts on a dominant chord is unusual but unheard of. To convince yourself it's not dorian, think about what chords you would harmonize it with. The first half of the 4th measure seems to cry out for a G minor (with a Bb) rather than a G major (with a B natural). The B natural in the melody is just a byproduct of the way melodic minor scales work, and is not part of the mode.

I could go on and on, but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

#20 Henrik Müller

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Posted 30 December 2005 - 04:28 AM

...I still maintain that the tune is in D minor (look how it ends), not dorian or any other mode.
...
...
I could go on and on, but I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Huuh - I hardly dare... but I'd say D minor, based on "feel" (sorry) and that a D minor chord sits very well in many places in tune - and in the end. Can't play chord at the same time, a duet would do it.
/Henrik

#21 keeper

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Posted 30 December 2005 - 04:57 AM

In response to David Barnert's view I do believe that I took pains to cover all the issues which he mentions in my original post and a thorough, cool reading of it should disclose that. I took particular pains to 'pre-handle' the predictable issues of harmony and taxonomy such as 'scale -v-mode' and what 'dominant' means. Which does not mean that readers have to agree with me, of course. David and I clearly disagree on these issues, which is fine, but I find that the theories reproduced by me actually accord with my ear and experience and I am content to commend them rather than to defend them.

Edited by keeper, 30 December 2005 - 05:00 AM.


#22 Henk van Aalten

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Posted 30 December 2005 - 05:09 AM

Huuh - I hardly dare...

As long as you "dare" to treat us with your next Swedish tune :)

#23 Cream-T

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Posted 30 December 2005 - 07:55 AM

Can't play chord at the same time, a duet would do it.
/Henrik


Yep, it would indeed. I think I posted along those lines in the other thread... from memory, I played A major, D minor and both G major and minor chords. If I find the time, I'll try and plot the chords to the melody one of these days. At the moment, things are rather mad and I hardly get round to playing at all.

#24 Henrik Müller

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Posted 30 December 2005 - 09:41 AM

Huuh - I hardly dare...

As long as you "dare" to treat us with your next Swedish tune :)

Yup - and I have found the next one, a Wedding March.
But... on the miniature Stagi I will have to play it in another key than the original, otherwise I am hitting the paper buttons (=silent) :D
/Henrik

#25 Henk van Aalten

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 12:28 AM

While searching Henrik Norbeck's fabulous ABC tune-book, I came across a tune called Schottis från Lima. It sounds very similar to Guckulåt Efter Josefs Lars! You can find it at the Scottish section under no. 8. You must have ABC software on PC to hear the tune.
Another option is to copy the tekst in the code field below and paste it in the form of the ABC Convert-A-Matic. After submitting you can listen to the tune by clicking the midi-link.

X:8
T:Schottis fr{\aa}n Lima
R:schottis
H:\"Aven i Am
A:Lima, Dalarna
Z:hn-schottis-8
M:C|
K:Dm
A=B^cd e2ef|d2de ^c2^c2|A=B^cd e2ef|(3gagfg a4|
A=B^cd e2ef|d2de ^c2^c2|defg age^c|dfe^c d4:|
|:agef g2g2|afde f2f2|e^cA^c e^cA^c|defg a4|
agef g2g2|afde f2f2|e^cA^c e^cA^c|dfe^c d4:|

sweden.gif

Note that Henrik Norbeck uses the same way (Dmin and 4/4) to write the tune as David Barnert did earlier in this thread. ;)

Edited by Henk van Aalten, 02 January 2006 - 01:31 AM.


#26 klaus guhl

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 03:19 AM

It seem to be the same tune, but without the typical (scotish) piper notes (one 1/16 + one dotted 1/8). Here we have a combination of two regular 1/8.

You found the tune on a bagpiper´s page, you said. I changed all the dotted into 1/8 and it sound fine.

Is there a LIMA in Sweden? It probably will not be Peru?

#27 Henk van Aalten

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 03:38 AM

It seem to be the same tune, but without the typical (scotish) piper notes (one 1/16 + one dotted 1/8). Here we have a combination of two regular 1/8.

You found the tune on a bagpiper´s page, you said. I changed all the dotted into 1/8 and it sound fine.

Is there a LIMA in Sweden? It probably will not be Peru?

Klaus,
To answer your last question first, there is a place called Lima in the region Dalarna in Sweden:
At this web page you can read:
In Western Dalarna the shimmering Västerdalälven river flows through Malung, Lima and Sälen.
In the second place I did not find the tune on a bagpiper's place but at Henrik Norbeck's ABC Tune Page.
Henrik Müller mentioned earlier on this forum that he got the tune from a bagpiper's source.

Edited by Henk van Aalten, 02 January 2006 - 03:39 AM.


#28 klaus guhl

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 04:56 AM

I have been to Darlana ages ago, when I was young. Very nice area.

I forgot to say that one 1/16 combined with a dotted 1/8 is known as "Scot curl". But it might been a swedish bagpipe tune. Anyway it is very nice and I love play it. I tried some single tone on the left, while playing the melodie, like Bertram Levy is doing it in his tutor with another swedish tune.

Now I am waiting for the wedding march. Hope it will also be such a nice tune.

#29 Henrik Müller

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 05:52 AM

I have been to Darlana ages ago, when I was young. Very nice area.

I forgot to say that one 1/16 combined with a dotted 1/8 is known as "Scot curl". But it might been a swedish bagpipe tune. Anyway it is very nice and I love play it. I tried some single tone on the left, while playing the melodie, like Bertram Levy is doing it in his tutor with another swedish tune.

Now I am waiting for the wedding march. Hope it will also be such a nice tune.

Most Honourable Gentlemen!
First, A Happy, Peaceful (exept for musical noises) New Year! Next:

When things go too fast they are not checked too well...

I have now finished digitizing the bagpipe record, made a mistake when doing the CD (two tracks the same) and had to redo it yesterday. During the whole process I did a lot of listening... and that's where I started to suspect that something wasn't really right:

Firstly, I realized that I had played the tune from (vague) memory, and thus played it freely, as a tune for listening.

Secondly - huuh, here comes the good part: I had mixed up the A and the B side when I looked for the name!

Which brings us to Henk's discovery:
It is indeed "Schottis from Lima" - a schotische. And it is Dalarna, not Peru :D.
See it danced, and it all makes sense!

Shame on me :wacko: and my greatest respect to Henk :) for finding it - great coincidence that we discovered the mistake more or less at the same time!

But playing it freely (when there are no dancers around) is, IMHO, fully acceptable. For the sake of completeness I will soon attempt to record a more dance-friendly version (there are also a couple of notes, which I am not getting right (memory failure, you know).

===========

We spent New Year's eve at a great party which acted as the culmination of three days courses in fiddle, singing and (Swedish) bagpipe. The fiddle courses were conducted by two major, charismatic figures from the traditional circles in Dalarna, Maria Röjås for singing, and Jonny Soling for fiddle.
The whole course series was arranged by a local group, "Svanevit", whose two members (who also form the duo "Dråm"), Anna and Erik held the bagpipe course. They can be seen/heard on "TVfolk.net" (QuickTime required). You will like that, Klaus, I think. I better apply for the course next year...

/Henrik

P.S. Can I rely on you, Henk, to change the name on the "Recorded Tunes" page, please?

Edited to add the above line -

Edited by Henrik Müller, 02 January 2006 - 05:54 AM.


#30 Henk van Aalten

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 06:52 AM

But playing it freely (when there are no dancers around) is, IMHO, fully acceptable. For the sake of completeness I will soon attempt to record a more dance-friendly version (there are also a couple of notes, which I am not getting right (memory failure, you know).

When you look at the reactions, it is clear that people like Schottis från Lima the way you play it. With a bit more "Scot curl" (as Klaus describes) it gives the playing more "drive" than it originally has. I will keep it in my favorites collection the way you played it ;)

Tonight I will have a look at the videos and change the name in the Links Page. Here (at work) is a nasty firewall between my workplace and the internet :(

#31 David Barnert

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 10:11 AM

Secondly - huuh, here comes the good part: I had mixed up the A and the B side when I looked for the name!

Let me make sure I understand you correctly: Are you saying that "Guckulåt Efter Josefs Lars" is the name of a tune on the other side of the CD and has nothing to do with this tune, which is actually called "Schottis från Lima"?

I would remind readers what I said a week and a half ago in response to why I set the bar lines every 4 beats instead of every 2:

I play a lot for traditioal dance forms. This tune reminds me of Swedish Schottisches which have a step-step-step-hop progression and are usually written in 4/4.



#32 Henrik Müller

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 11:02 AM

Secondly - huuh, here comes the good part: I had mixed up the A and the B side when I looked for the name!

Let me make sure I understand you correctly: Are you saying that "Guckulåt Efter Josefs Lars" is the name of a tune on the other side of the CD and has nothing to do with this tune, which is actually called "Schottis från Lima"?

I would remind readers what I said a week and a half ago in response to why I set the bar lines every 4 beats instead of every 2:

I play a lot for traditioal dance forms. This tune reminds me of Swedish Schottisches which have a step-step-step-hop progression and are usually written in 4/4.

Sorry about this confusion!

Yes - I am saying that what I up till now has called "Guckulåt Efter Josefs Lars" really is "Schottis från Lima" - I had listening so little to the tune that I readily accepted the (wrong) name - I had the melodic skeleton in my mind, not the rhytm. Otherwise I would have reacted like: "What? That is not a schottis!?". Both tunes are the third last track on the LP's sides, so it was easy to look at the LP cover and say: "Hmm - third from the bottom...".

So when you smelled schottis, you were right :) !

/Henrik

#33 Henk van Aalten

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 01:02 PM

P.S. Can I rely on you, Henk, to change the name on the "Recorded Tunes" page, please?

Consider it done! I expect however that you will soon change the name of the sound file ? :unsure: ?

#34 Samantha

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Posted 02 January 2006 - 01:16 PM

I like the term "Scottish curl" but here in Scotland I believe it's called the "Scotch snap".
Samantha

#35 klaus guhl

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Posted 03 January 2006 - 02:52 AM

I like the term "Scottish curl" but here in Scotland I believe it's called the "Scotch snap".
Samantha

Sorry, my tutor must be wrong. You will surely be right.

#36 Henk van Aalten

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Posted 26 February 2006 - 03:40 AM

Every time I take my concertina and I just do'nt exactly know what to play, the tune that has got it's right title "Schottis från Lima" keeps popping up.
So as I am alone at home for this weekend, I have all the time of the world to play as much as I can and I decided to plug in a microphone in my notebook and recorded the tune.
You can find it here.
I also put my headphone on and played simultaneously with Henrik's version. It was a great joy :) :) !!




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