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Help Confirming A Possible Lachenal


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#19 wes williams

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Posted 02 July 2005 - 03:56 AM

Indeed, unpublished information that you have compiled, Wes, would seem to indicate that Wm. Henry Tidder was a concertina maker at least between 1884-1921...

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We'll put that right straight away:
1884 WM. HY. TIDDER 144 JAMAICA ST STEPNEY
1885 No Entry
1886 As 1884
1888 Tidder Wm. Henry, 144 Jamaica st. Stepney E
1888 As 1884
1890 No Entry
1891 Tidder Wm. Henry, 144 Jamaica st. Stepney E
1892 228 MILE END RD
1894 As 1892
1895 Tidder Wm. Henry & Sons, 228 Mile end rd E
1896 As 1892
1902 Tidder Wm. Henry & Son,228 Mile end rd E
1921 Tidder & Son 62 Backhurst st Bethnal grn E1

I don't know which version of my notebook you are working with, but the latest has a note:

Possibility of link with George Jones?:
1851 Tidder Wm. Oilman 3 Evaline place, Commercial rd east

So could Tidder have been one of Jones' sucessful apprentices that he mentions? Is that why Dave Elliott and I both thought of Jones as the possible maker?

Thanks for the Free Reed Organ site, its a very useful resource.

#20 Stephen Chambers

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Posted 02 July 2005 - 08:12 AM

I don't know which version of my notebook you are working with, but the latest has a note:

Possibility of link with George Jones?:
1851 Tidder Wm. Oilman 3 Evaline place, Commercial rd east

So could Tidder have been one of Jones' sucessful apprentices that he mentions?

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Wes,

Yes, it's that version, and I think you are probably right and that Tidder was indeed one of Jones' "fifteen apprentices most of which has done well, served me faithfully". Not only was he geographically close to Jones, but we also know (from his Memoir) that Jones "In 1853 ... commenced to make harmonium reeds" and "In ... 1867 to make harmoniums. Made the first portable instrument for Mr Turner, then of Cheapside, who I worked for for many years", so he seems very much to have followed in Jones' footsteps.

Is that why Dave Elliott and I both thought of Jones as the possible maker?

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I suppose that the roughness of the workmanship might remind you of some of Jones' cheaper instruments, but the designs are very much copied from Lachenal models (maybe that's why he never put his own name on one ? :huh: ).

I must do some more work on Tidder, but not just now as I have to go up to Miltown Malbay this afternoon.

#21 Stephen Chambers

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Posted 02 July 2005 - 06:35 PM

I must do some more work on Tidder, but not just now as I have to go up to Miltown Malbay this afternoon.

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Wes,

I've been doing some genealogical research on William Henry Tidder since I got home this evening :

He was born in Stepney, East London, on 21st May 1847, father Joseph Tidder, mother Sarah, and christened at St. Dunstan's, Stepney, on 15th March 1850 (along with his four sisters, born 1832-44).

In 4Q 1871 he married Louisa Ruth Hickey (born in Stepney, 21st or 24th February 1851), in Hackney, and by the 1881 Census they were living at 144, Jamaica St., Stepney, with their four children (all born in Stepney), William James Tidder, born 26th September 1873, christened 19th October 1873 at St. Dunstan's, Stepney, Henry Thomas Tidder (born 2Q 1875), Louisa Tidder (born c.1876) and Albert Victor Tidder (born c.1878). William Henry Tidder's occupation beng listed as a "Musical Instrument Mkr."

For the 1891 Census they were still at the same address, where the occupation of both William Henry, and his 17-year old son William James, is given as "Portable Harmonium Manuf.", whilst 16-year old Henry Thomas is a "Pianoforte Tuner". There are also two more children listed, Philip Frederick Tidder (born c.1886) and Alfred James Tidder (born c.1888).

In 1901 they were at 228, Mile End Road, with the occupations of both William Henry and William James being listed as "Harmonium Maker", working "At Home" on their "Own Account".

William Henry Tidder died in 1Q 1906, so presumably it was his son William James who carried on the business thereafter.

#22 wes williams

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Posted 03 July 2005 - 07:33 AM

Is that why Dave Elliott and I both thought of Jones as the possible maker?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I suppose that the roughness of the workmanship might remind you of some of Jones' cheaper instruments, but the designs are very much copied from Lachenal models (maybe that's why he never put his own name on one ? :huh: ).

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Almost thirty years ago I did some work on a basic unmarked 20 key anglo. To my inexperienced eyes, there was nothing very different about it from a Lachenal, apart from the round staple-like pivot posts, like we see here. By elimination, I thought it must have been a Jones. Are you saying that this style of action isn't Jones? If so, perhaps other unmarked instruments of the same make have been passing through restoration and repair, and being attributed to Jones.

Thanks for the genealogy. I spent most of the day watching the Live8 stuff B). Perhaps we should note for other readers that inspite of his prominence in concertinas here, George Jones was usually listed as either a Harmonium Maker, or a general Musical Instrument Maker, so his association with the reed organ trade was very strong.

#23 Stephen Chambers

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Posted 03 July 2005 - 04:18 PM

So could Tidder have been one of Jones' sucessful apprentices that he mentions?

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Wes,

Yes ... I think you are probably right and that Tidder was indeed one of Jones' "fifteen apprentices most of which has done well, served me faithfully". Not only was he geographically close to Jones, but we also know (from his Memoir) that Jones "In 1853 ... commenced to make harmonium reeds" and "In ... 1867 to make harmoniums. Made the first portable instrument for Mr Turner, then of Cheapside, who I worked for for many years", so he seems very much to have followed in Jones' footsteps.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And having established that Tidder was born in 1847 it seems even more likely that he could have been apprenticed to Jones, as he would therefore have been 14 in 1861, the right age to become an apprentice (for seven years) in the year that we believe Jones would have been starting to rebuild his business at 2, Lucas Place, Commercial Road (renumbered 350, Commercial Road in 1874) following a disastrous fire at 3, Crombies Row (the old Jabez Austin premises) on the opposite side of Commercial Road, next to Jubilee Street.

For that matter, it is also worthy of note that Tidder's Jamaica Street address was only two streets along Commercial Road from Jubilee Street.

The circumstantial evidence seems to be building ...

Almost thirty years ago I did some work on a basic unmarked 20 key anglo. To my inexperienced eyes, there was nothing very different about it from a Lachenal, apart from the round staple-like pivot posts, like we see here. By elimination, I thought it must have been a Jones. Are you saying that this style of action isn't Jones?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

In fact that was Lachenal's cheapest action, used in their cheap mahogany-ended line. Jones normally used a rivetted action.

Perhaps we should note for other readers that inspite of his prominence in concertinas here, George Jones was usually listed as either a Harmonium Maker, or a general Musical Instrument Maker, so his association with the reed organ trade was very strong.

Indeed so, it may be worth noting here that he even manufactured banjos too ! :o

(That should get a rise out of Mark ! ;) )

#24 malcolm clapp

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Posted 05 July 2005 - 04:00 AM

So any thoughts about this one??? B)


http://cgi.ebay.com/...7334444805&rd=1


(Edited to remove reference to blue clicky not working!)

Edited by malcolm clapp, 05 July 2005 - 04:04 AM.


#25 Stephen Chambers

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Posted 05 July 2005 - 02:36 PM

So any thoughts about this one??? B)

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Malcolm,

That looks like an I. Dunnow-Watt ! ;) :rolleyes:

But seriously, the levers look like they came out of two different concertinas, I wonder what the reedpans are like ? :huh:

#26 Stephen Chambers

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Posted 16 October 2005 - 07:43 PM

And here's what looks like another probable Tidder, which has just turned up on eBay :

Posted Image

#27 david robertson

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Posted 22 October 2005 - 06:15 AM

OK, what about this one, recently surfaced on e-bay? Labelled as a Lachenal, but with the round section staple-type pivot posts that seem to be typical of what we now have to refer to as a Maybe-Tidder. Any ideas, anyone?[attachment=1281:attachment] [attachment=1282:attachment] [attachment=1284:attachment]

#28 Stephen Chambers

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Posted 22 October 2005 - 06:43 AM

OK, what about this one, recently surfaced on e-bay? Labelled as a Lachenal, but with the round section staple-type pivot posts that seem to be typical of what we now have to refer to as a Maybe-Tidder. Any ideas, anyone?[attachment=1281:attachment] [attachment=1282:attachment] [attachment=1284:attachment]

Hi David,

No, that's a Lachenal, I already mentioned (above) that the "staple" form of pivot originated with Lachenal's, and was one of the features copied by Tidder (or whoever made these instruments).

#29 david robertson

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Posted 22 October 2005 - 07:02 AM

OK, what about this one, recently surfaced on e-bay? Labelled as a Lachenal, but with the round section staple-type pivot posts that seem to be typical of what we now have to refer to as a Maybe-Tidder. Any ideas, anyone?[attachment=1281:attachment] [attachment=1282:attachment] [attachment=1284:attachment]

Hi David,

No, that's a Lachenal, I already mentioned (above) that the "staple" form of pivot originated with Lachenal's, and was one of the features copied by Tidder (or whoever made these instruments).



Thanks Stephen - I'll try to read more carefully next time!

#30 Stephen Chambers

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 01:42 AM

And here's what looks like another probable Tidder, which has just turned up on eBay ...

And another one, with the serial number 1108, for sale on Australian eBay at the moment:

Posted Image

With more of that greenish-coloured wood for the reed pan, visible through the bellows:

Posted Image

#31 malcolm clapp

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Posted 10 August 2006 - 10:35 AM

And here's what looks like another probable Tidder, which has just turned up on eBay ...

And another one, with the serial number 1108, for sale on Australian eBay at the moment:

Posted Image

With more of that greenish-coloured wood for the reed pan, visible through the bellows:

Posted Image



I emailed the seller earlier today, with a link to this thread. He is a long standing customer, though I didn't do the rebuild on this particular instrument, though I did a few minor adjustments on it recently.

MC

#32 Guest_jad_*

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Posted 22 August 2006 - 02:28 AM

And here's what looks like another probable Tidder, which has just turned up on eBay ...

And another one, with the serial number 1108, for sale on Australian eBay at the moment:

Posted Image

With more of that greenish-coloured wood for the reed pan, visible through the bellows:

Posted Image



I emailed the seller earlier today, with a link to this thread. He is a long standing customer, though I didn't do the rebuild on this particular instrument, though I did a few minor adjustments on it recently.

MC


I was delighted to read the discussion which has appeared regarding W H Tidder & Sons, and am very grateful to MC for letting me know it was taking place. He spent a few hours pondering over the maker of "1108" a month or so back and also tweaking it. I have put it on Ebay as I have passed my Biblical Use By date and really have no need of a second concertina - having a lovely English made DALLAS (Crabbe) which MC re-juvenated for me. To further complicate my retirement I am also enjoying learning Hohner two row button accordions in C/G and D/G so my cup runneth over so I guess even if I do get the heavenly nod I won't have time to respond! Cheers to all. John




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