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Name Of This Tune?


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#19 JimLucas

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Posted 27 June 2005 - 01:52 PM

Could it possibly be "TheDark Isle" ?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

That's a lovely tune, but it's not Lemon's.

The reason for starting this thread was: finding out if the tune in my mind is an existing tune ... if not, may I call myself a composer?

If you like. :) And especially if you find yourself composing a few more.

If so, who is writing the words for the Unknown Lemon song? :P
(Could start with: There's a tune in my head ... And it won't go away ...)

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

With a title like "Unknown Lemon", I was imagining something more like a down-on-his-luck blind blues singer buying a used car... sight unseen, of course. B)

#20 JimLucas

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Posted 27 June 2005 - 03:10 PM

The first 4-bar snippet of tune you describe is identical to a waltz I know of which that part is the SECOND 4 bars of the tune, (the first 4 bars are similar), and the second part starts out on the high F like you have in your 6th bar.... The rest of your version sounds nothing like the tune I have in mind.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

This seems another example of what I was describing: Bits and pieces of tunes get re-used -- and probably re-invented -- again and again. The shorter the bit, the more likely you'll find it somewhere in several other tunes. And even long bits will reappear frequently if they're particularly attractive.

The flip side of this is that a single tune may have many variants, differing in greater or lesser degrees. So when you find new a tune that's a 50% match with an older one, has part of the old one been "borrowed" in composing the new one, or is the new one a "variant" of the old one? Frankly, I don't worry about it. I simply note the similarity, and then -- if I like it -- I play it.

Lemon, I think it's a good bet that the tune is your own, though quite possibly inspired by something(s) you've heard. I have many tunes like that, and a couple that I'm not even sure whether I remembered or created them. I just say, "I think I wrote this one." :)

#21 Richard Morse

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 08:09 AM

Aha! I found it. Turns out that the piece I'm thinking about is called Maquire and Paterson as played by Sharon Shannon on her Out the Gap album. I've crunched it down to 327KB so you can check it out here.

#22 Michael Reid

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Posted 28 June 2005 - 09:33 AM

Aha! I found it. Turns out that the piece I'm thinking about is called Maquire and Paterson as played by Sharon Shannon on her Out the Gap album.

Since two of us have now identified Maguire and Patterson as the prime suspect -- look back to post #4 in this thread -- surely we're right. :lol:

#23 PeterT

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Posted 12 March 2006 - 07:16 PM

Here's how my train of thought and subsequent action went:

If Dick Miles is right about the tune (probably is), then I will recognise it. I listened to the music clip; yes Dick is right. So far, so good!

Dick then refers to Archie Leach; the grey cells then remember a reference to Archie Leach/Cary Grant in a Wurzels song. However, the brain video tells me that the image of Cary Grant is not correct :unsure: , so better do an internet search. Result: some interesting facts, but not what I was looking for.

Re-running the brain image tells me that it was Spencer Tracey; the main image is of the character trapped on deck, legs "lost", and the ship sinking. Repeat internet search. Bingo!

====================================
Subject: RE: LITTLE FISHES (TRAD?) - INFO PLEASE
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 21 Jan 99 - 12:14 AM

G'day all,

There were one or two versions of "Little Fish" collected in Australia in the 1950s. I'm fairly certain that there were claims that there were traditional versions pre-dating Spencer Tracey's rendition in "Captains Courageous". One bloke I used to know - Jack Wright - gave several verses ... and complained of his memory - he could only remember the clean ones!

I'll look into the history and see what else I can find.

Regards,

Bob Bolton
===================================

Regards,
Peter. B)

#24 JimLucas

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Posted 13 March 2006 - 01:37 PM

I've this tune in my mind - guess I've picked it up once. It begins as in the attached jpg or attached wav. Who knows the title, and how it goes on?

[this tune sounds like a song called hey ho little fishy itis an austalian song .... .oh its in the penguin book of australian folk songs

This other Topic is a former spinoff from this one, with comparative sound files, including "Yea Ho, Little Fishy", from the Penguin book of Australian Songs, as Dick mentions.

#25 C age ing

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Posted 10 June 2006 - 12:33 PM

Guess it is the banjo background but a very great likeness to versions of 'Sweet Betsy from Pike', to which many sets of words have been set,
Sorry to introduce the very 'umble five string into topic.

#26 JimLucas

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Posted 10 June 2006 - 02:22 PM

Guess it is the banjo background but a very great likeness to versions of 'Sweet Betsy from Pike', to which many sets of words have been set,

the song is hey ho little fishy and it is in the penguin book of australian folk songs. it is not sweet betsy from pike.THIS HAS ALREADY BEEN SORTED OUT.

"Song"? This subject of this Topic is a tune, not a song.

It has indeed been sorted out... that Lemon's tune bears resemblance to a number of different current melodies, including more than one song tune, but is not entirely the same as any of the candidates proposed so far. One of those is the song "Yea Ho, Little Fishy". "Sweet Besty from Pike", though not mentioned in the earlier discussion, is another. Still, each shows significant differences from the tune Lemon posted, when they are compared in their complete forms.

As mentioned earlier in this thread, I tried to start a separate Topic to discuss what factors lead us to consider different tunes to be "similar", but it didn't go very far. It does, however, include links to sound files of some of the candidates proposed earlier, including "Yea Ho, Little Fishy", so we can each draw our own conclusions.

#27 JimLucas

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Posted 10 June 2006 - 06:53 PM

...jim the opening four barsof sweet betsy from pike are indeed in waltz time th ere the similarity ends,... the opening four bars are exactly the same as little fishyand not the same as sweet betsy.

I disagree.

But as the source of our disagreement may be due in part to differences in the way we view "similarity", I have put my reply in the previously mentioned Tune Identities Topic.

#28 JimLucas

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 10:30 AM

...jim the opening four barsof sweet betsy from pike are indeed in waltz time th ere the similarity ends,... the opening four bars are exactly the same as little fishyand not the same as sweet betsy.

I disagree.
But as the source of our disagreement may be due in part to differences in the way we view "similarity", I have put my reply in the previously mentioned Tune Identities Topic.

sorry jim, but i see no similarity between these opening four bars,...

B)?

In this Topic I have documented the similarities and differences among the three different sets of four bars, according to more than one set of criteria. If you believe I've made an error, please be specific, preferably in that thread, so that your comments can be viewed along with what you're commenting on.

As before, I am continuing my responses in that other thread, in order to keep together comments that I believe to be related to its Topic.

#29 JimLucas

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 11:06 AM

...IN THE ORIGINAL SONG ARE THE WORDS DID YOU,
...
the original tune which i learnt from chris coe is different from the version in the australian book...

Dick, I don't know what you mean by "original" in these comments.

Did Chris Coe compose the song "The Little Fish", or was she the source for it in The Penguin Australian Song Book? How is her version more "original" than the one in the book? Or do you just mean the that it's the first version that you learned? Certainly, neither of the Lomaxes originated "Sweet Betsy from Pike". It was first published by John A. Stone -- its reputed author, who it seems performed under the name of "Old Put" -- in Put's Golden Songster, San Francisco, 1858.

Edited to correct some mistaken pronouns.

Edited by JimLucas, 11 June 2006 - 12:57 PM.


#30 JimLucas

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Posted 11 June 2006 - 12:55 PM

chris coe IS A WOMAN

OOPS! My apologies to you, and especially to Chris, for assuming that she was a "he". Just possibly I was unconsicously thinking of Pete when I saw her name.

Edited to add: I have now corrected the relevant pronouns in my earlier post.

Edited by JimLucas, 11 June 2006 - 12:59 PM.


#31 JimLucas

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Posted 13 June 2006 - 01:43 AM

chris coe IS A WOMAN

No need to shout.

i was there doing it jim , so i know chris coe is a woman

And now I know it, too. And a bit more, since your mention of her prompted me to do some research, which led me to this web site.

Now about the similarity of those tunes....

#32 JimLucas

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Posted 13 June 2006 - 05:58 AM

====================================
Subject: RE: LITTLE FISHES (TRAD?) - INFO PLEASE
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 21 Jan 99 - 12:14 AM

G'day all,

There were one or two versions of "Little Fish" collected in Australia in the 1950s. I'm fairly certain that there were claims that there were traditional versions pre-dating Spencer Tracey's rendition in "Captains Courageous". One bloke I used to know - Jack Wright - gave several verses ... and complained of his memory - he could only remember the clean ones!

I'll look into the history and see what else I can find.

Regards,

Bob Bolton
===================================

Unfortunately, there seems to be no follow up to that post, and almost nothing else about the movie which mentions the song. I guess I'll have to try to find a DVD copy of the movie to see how Tracy's singing compares to the version in The Penguin Australian Song Book.

Besides, I've never seen the movie, an oversight I should correct. :)

#33 JimLucas

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 12:12 AM

DEAR JIM .i am not shouting...

It's a commonly recognized convention in the internet "language" that using ALL CAPITAL LETTERS signifies shouting. In systems where markup tags are recognized (this Forum is one), italics, boldface type, and underlining are commonly used to indicate other kinds or degrees of emphasis.

#34 David Barnert

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Posted 19 June 2006 - 02:07 PM

It's a commonly recognized convention in the internet "language" that using ALL CAPITAL LETTERS signifies shouting.

Actually, I think that the reason that people object to ALL CAPS is that it is so difficult to read. People don't realize it and ascribe it to shouting, but I really think that is the reason. All caps may be fine for short headline-type announcements, but is very frustrating as extended text (a whole paragraph, say).

Mixed caps and smalls have enough ascenders and descenders so that each word has its own shape and can be recognized at sight even if one does not take the time to parse each of the letters. In ALL CAPS, each word is just a big rectangle until you scrutinize the details.

Just for the hell of it, here's that last paragraph again in all caps. Take my word for it that I'm not shouting.

MIXED CAPS AND SMALLS HAVE ENOUGH ASCENDERS AND DESCENDERS SO THAT EACH WORD HAS ITS OWN SHAPE AND CAN BE RECOGNIZED AT SIGHT EVEN IF ONE DOES NOT TAKE THE TIME TO PARSE EACH OF THE LETTERS. IN ALL CAPS, EACH WORD IS JUST A BIG RECTANGLE UNTIL YOU SCRUTINIZE THE DETAILS.

See what I mean?

Edited for typo.

Edited by David Barnert, 19 June 2006 - 02:10 PM.


#35 JimLucas

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Posted 20 June 2006 - 06:28 AM

Re all caps as "shouting":

any way it is irrelevant to the logic of either jim,s argument or mine,

Agreed.

whether I am shouting is irrelevant

Irrelevant to the topic under discussion. Relevant to keeping discussion civil.

..AS I AM FAIRLY NEW TO THIS IWASN,T AWARE OF THIS RULE,NOW THAT I AM, AND AS WE HAVE TO USE THE RULES I apologise and will desist from this upsetting habit...

And I apologize for being so terse in pointing it out. I thought I remembered it having been brought up recently in another thread here on C.net, but I shouldn't have assumed it was something you had noticed.

...just to put all this in perspective, thousands of people are being killed all over the world.how important are these conventions in this context.

As important as we wish to make them. The behavior of others -- especially behavior which we condemn -- should have no influence on our own personal standards of behavior. Well, that's what I believe.

#36 JimLucas

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Posted 20 June 2006 - 07:53 AM

the interpretation of SHOUTING, is subjective its only shouting if you already know this convention,

Quite true, but the convention predates the invention of the PC. It was developed by the early users of email and of what is now called the internet, back when the content was printed on paper rather than pictured on a screen. These were the same folks who invented emoticons (smileys), which were "shorthand" conventions of juxtaposed characters to simulate smiles, frowns, etc. (If you click on a smiley to put it into your text, you'll see that for most of them the "raw" text consists of just a couple of characters which sort of look like the selected facial expression, e.g., ":" and "D" side by side for the toothy grin.)

why is it more rude to use capital letters than to underline something, or to use italics,....

Because that has become the accepted convention. And because it was felt that a convention was needed for the purpose. Driving on the right-hand side of the road is no more or less "logical" than driviing on the left-hand side, but it is very important that on a given road everyone follow the same convention, in order to avoid head-on collisions. So conventions -- laws -- are established. Even though in the US they're opposite to what they are in Britain, they work, because the drivers in each country follow the local law.

[ I] havent learnt to find the underlining button ... perhaps you would be good enough to explain where the thing is,

The "underline" button is the one labelled with a "U" in the row of buttons at the top of the window where you type in your text. This Topic has some discussion of how to use the buttons. Most work the same way as the "quote" button, though links and images are different. Note that the details of how it works seem to be different on Macs than on PC's. You can read the discussion through to get the details.

Chris Timson tends to use underlining for emphasis. I tend to use italics and sometimes boldface, but I usually avoid underlining, because it is also used to indicate clickable links, and I want to avoid the ambiguity.




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