[Animaterra]

What's the proper tempo for a slip jig?

[Mark Evans]

Allison,
Nothing I'm about ta' say has any academic or musicalogical veritas:

Slip Jig? Faster 'na scalded dog! Yee-Haw!

[Ken_Coles]

Animaterra, on Mar 18 2005, 04:57 PM, said:

What's the proper tempo for a slip jig?

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If you are playing for Irish dancers and they are not all beginners, they will tell you what they need. In other cases I have concluded there is no consistent standard. I know, the venerable among you will come in with metronome estimates etc. based on your local experience, but in sessions and jams from Calif. to Mass. to Eire I have experienced all sorts of tempos for slip jigs, well beyond ranges of tempos quoted by the more temperate, experience musicians I have known or read. Some folks do like to go very fast (fiddlers seem especially prone to this). That's fine for many reels and some other forms. Slip jigs in particular can be great if played more moderately (e.g. the "Butterfly"), an idea I got from listening to Grey Larsen play.

Just one opinion.

[Jim Besser]

Animaterra, on Mar 18 2005, 04:57 PM, said:

What's the proper tempo for a slip jig?

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Funny you should ask; tonight we played at a performance for a dance group we've been working with for about 8 years. We do one slip jig for them, and traditionally it's been very slow.

Tonight, in a quick run-through, they kept telling us to speed up. At the performance, it was significantly faster than we usually play it, and it looked great.

So I guess Ken's answer is right: it's up to the dancers!

(We played The Butterfly; for some reason, the dancers find that easier to dance to than any of the others we tried)

This post has been edited by Jim Besser: 18 March 2005 - 10:56 PM

[David Barnert]

Agreeing with all the above, if you're playing for a dance, let the dance dictate. I've played slip jigs for Rapper Sword Dancing and also for Border Morris. Rapper is much faster.

Perhaps a good rule of thumb is to play it at a similar tempo to how you would play any other jig. Similar in terms of beats or notes—the measures, of course, will go by only 2/3 as quickly.

[JimLucas]

David Barnert, on Mar 19 2005, 05:23 AM, said:

Agreeing with all the above, if you're playing for a dance, let the dance dictate. I've played slip jigs for Rapper Sword Dancing and also for Border Morris. Rapper is much faster.

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Many of the questions here on Concertina.net assume Irish music, and session music, at that, so that answers from those of us who play other kinds of music can be confusing. And it all depends on personal experience. E.g., I've seen rapper in America at speeds double that of any I've seen in England.

As I learned slip jigs for Irish step dancing, they are relatively slow and flowing. The dance is a "soft shoe" dance -- where intricate movements of the body, legs, and feet are what matters -- as opposed to "hard shoe" -- where the percussive sound of the feet is important. The slip jig is often described as "floating", and even as "appearing not to touch the ground from start to finish". For that, a speed of 80-90 beats (dotted-quarter notes) per minute is often appropriate (depending on the dancer), and Hardiman the Fiddler and Old Dutch Churn (also known as The Night of Fun, and I think at least one other name) would be typical tunes.

If slip jigs are incorporated into sets or ceilidh dances, I think they're generally a bit faster, maybe 100 bpm. Humours of Whiskey is one I learned at that speed. Also, The Butterfly is often played at that tempo, but I've heard it done anywhere from very slow to very fast. (Playing it at 80 bpm can be beautiful, but then it needs to be made to feel like a floating butterfly, not like a weary soldier attempting to march.)

If you go outside of Irish music, and particularly to Northeast England, tempos can be much faster, but the tunes used are more suited to that treatment. The Rocky Road to Dublin is one, and Drops of Brandy is a particular favorite. For rapper dance or a set dance like "Strip the Willow", a speed of 120 bpm or above is common. (I think it was Alistair Anderson who said that in Northumberland they "start off the dance at breakneck speed, and accelerate from there."

But if you're trying to learn slip jigs from "the dots", without ever hearing them played by others, you're missing some very important input. And if you learn to play along with recordings, you shouldn't need to ask about tempo, unless you're asking whether it's OK to depart from the tempos of the recordings you've heard. The answer to that is, yes. As long as you're not playing for dancers, if it feels right to you, then it's just fine.

[Mark Evans]

Great discussion. Allison, have you developed a taste for starting a pub punch up and then slipping away to watch the chaps duke it out? I thought Al was our only master at that.

I'm so glad Ken brought up "The Butterfly". Beautiful thing it is, one could (I assume) never invision it rippin' along at terminal velocity. It has taken the step of becoming "pure music", that is decended from a dance form, but no longer dependant upon dance as a justification for it's being. I was told who composed it and have forgotten, because it is a contemporary work, nicht war?

This seems to be related to the style thread in that different situations call for different response. I love to sit down with chums and just play without rigid regard to dance form protocol, have at it and be done with it. However, there is something deeply moving playing for dancers (a troupe of hot hoofers or just a good old barn or contra dance). Here I go with the hippie-dippie granola stuff again, but it is very satisfying sublimating one's personal desires and becoming a part of something larger and very primal to the human condition.

[Animaterra]

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have you developed a taste for starting a pub punch up and then slipping away to watch the chaps duke it out?

I've been enjoying this one, it's true! Such a fount of information, fellas- thanks!
The jig in question is from the Joyce collection: Sheep Shearers, or Next Oars- hardly a well-known chestnut in the repertwah, hence my query. It'll be played as part of my NEFFA set. My harpist called me at 6:30 yesterday morning in a panic: "How fast is this thing supposed to be???"

I said- for now, as fast as the slowest of us can play it easily and well!

Which isn't all that fast, kind of an easy lope. Kinda like Jim's description of a "soft shoe" dance- I can't tell you how happy that description made me, Jim!! Perhaps not quite fast enough for dancers, but probably fast enough for a NEFFA concert at 10 am!!

But don't let this stop the discussion! I'll just sit back with my arms folded behind my head and my feet up, and enjoy the pub punch!

[Jim Besser]

JimLucas, on Mar 19 2005, 02:09 AM, said:

David Barnert, on Mar 19 2005, 05:23 AM, said:

Agreeing with all the above, if you're playing for a dance, let the dance dictate. I've played slip jigs for Rapper Sword Dancing and also for Border Morris. Rapper is much faster.

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As I learned slip jigs for Irish step dancing, they are relatively slow and flowing. The dance is a "soft shoe" dance -- where intricate movements of the body, legs, and feet are what matters -- as opposed to "hard shoe" -- where the percussive

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Exactly. Our dancers do this beautifully. It's very nice to watch and rewarding to play.

Interestingly, we tried numerous slip jigs before we found one they were happy with. they disliked Drops of Brandy; said they couldn't hear the beat clearly enough. That could have been us, of course, but the Butterfly works perfectly for them.

[David Barnert]

Jim B. said:

Interestingly, we tried numerous slip jigs before we found one they were happy with. they disliked Drops of Brandy; said they couldn't hear the beat clearly enough. That could have been us, of course, but the Butterfly works perfectly for them.

Even more interesting. We wrote a border morris dance around "Drops of Brandy." I have always found "the Butterfly" awkward, rhythmically, because the smoothness of the tune undermines the beat.

This post has been edited by David Barnert: 19 March 2005 - 03:54 PM

[JimLucas]

David Barnert, on Mar 19 2005, 09:53 PM, said:

Jim B. said:

Interestingly, we tried numerous slip jigs before we found one they were happy with. they disliked Drops of Brandy; said they couldn't hear the beat clearly enough. That could have been us, of course, but the Butterfly works perfectly for them.

Even more interesting. We wrote a border morris dance around "Drops of Brandy." I have always found "the Butterfly" awkward, rhythmically, because the smoothness of the tune undermines the beat.

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I would guess that the goodness-of-fit of the different tunes for the different dances has to do with the way the beats are subdivided and the way the stress is distributed within the measure, within both the tunes and the dances, and how well these match up. In particular, I suspect the problem Jim B's dancers had with Drops of Brandy wasn't that they couldn't hear the beat, but that they couldn't hear the kind of beat they wanted.

The Butterfly's rhythm is "walking through the woods," while Drops of Brandy is more like "running away with the carnival."

[Jim Besser]

David Barnert, on Mar 19 2005, 03:53 PM, said:

Jim B. said:

perfectly for them.

Even more interesting. We wrote a border morris dance around "Drops of Brandy." I have always found "the Butterfly" awkward, rhythmically, because the smoothness of the tune undermines the beat.

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THese dancers apparently LIKED the smoothness, which went well with a very fluid Irish dance. I can see where it wouldn't work for border Morris. I'd rather play something else; the Butterfly is ok, but there are so many great slip jigs out there.

OUr dancers get into a rut; they learn a dance to a particular tune, then howl when it's changed.

[Mike Fairbairn]

JimLucas, on Mar 19 2005, 05:24 PM, said:

David Barnert, on Mar 19 2005, 09:53 PM, said:

Jim B. said:

Interestingly, we tried numerous slip jigs before we found one they were happy with. they disliked Drops of Brandy; said they couldn't hear the beat clearly enough. That could have been us, of course, but the Butterfly works perfectly for them.

Even more interesting. We wrote a border morris dance around "Drops of Brandy." I have always found "the Butterfly" awkward, rhythmically, because the smoothness of the tune undermines the beat.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I would guess that the goodness-of-fit of the different tunes for the different dances has to do with the way the beats are subdivided and the way the stress is distributed within the measure, within both the tunes and the dances, and how well these match up. In particular, I suspect the problem Jim B's dancers had with Drops of Brandy wasn't that they couldn't hear the beat, but that they couldn't hear the kind of beat they wanted.

The Butterfly's rhythm is "walking through the woods," while Drops of Brandy is more like "running away with the carnival."

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[Mark Evans]

Very nice that the Butterfly is still in play here. I really like Jim's discription of it as a walk through the woods in juxtaposition to Drops of Brandy's running away at a carnival.

A very interesting version of the Butterfly can be found on the sound track to an Irish movie (gonna get the title all wrong) "The Legend of Roan Innish":

A young girl is tripping along an island beach with blonde hair, rosey cheeks, a little white peasant dress and in the sound track, a haunting rendition of the Butterfly on wood concert flute ( I'm not certain , for I have experimented with achieving the same effect on low D whistle and it is very close). The musician accentuates the ryhthm, almost a double dot that could not be discribed in any way as smooth. Angular would be closer.

The effect of the little girl tripping long the beach and going over rocks is magical, an organic slip jig. The moment has transcended dance, music and film (actually it grabbed me by the throat and I teared up a bit and had to beathe very carefully so as not to sob in front of the family...again). Check it out. Great version of the silkie tale at any rate. Worth a rent.

This post has been edited by Mark Evans: 20 March 2005 - 08:10 AM

[David Barnert]

Mark Evans, on Mar 20 2005, 08:09 AM, said:

Very nice that the Butterfly is still in play here.  I really like Jim's discription of it as a walk through the woods in juxtaposition to Drops of Brandy's running away at a carnival.

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Mark, it's not clear from your words whether you realized that while the poetic imagery in the phrases "walking through the woods" and "running away with the carnival" may have resonance with you, I think Jim chose those phrases more because the syllables have the appropriate rhythm to be sung to the tunes (actually, there's an extra unaccented syllable in "running").

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A very interesting version of the Butterfly can be found on the sound track to an Irish movie (gonna get the title all wrong) "The Legend of Roan Innish":

I'm sorry, Mark, maybe I got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning. "The Secret of Roan Inish" (1994) is not an Irish film, but an American film about Ireland. It was directed by Schenectady NY native, John Sayles.

On a more positive note, the flyer for the Early Music series, "Aston Magna," arrived this week and I just opened it last night. I instantly noticed a familiar portrait on the inside. The photo from your wife's web site (which I just looked at the other day) accompanies the announcement that she will be performing with them on July 16th.

My wife and I generally get to 3 or 4 Astom Magna concerts each summer, but unfortunately I will be at Early Music Week at Pinewoods beginning that afternoon.

[Mark Evans]

Sorry David, you give me too much credit. I'm a bit thick when it comes to double entente. After all I'm a tenor and a bluegrass banjo player. The bulb is only burnin' at about 25 watts on a good day.

The Secret of Roan Inish, thank you. Didn't realize it was an american film (neither is the local video store for one will find it in the foreign film section). Makes me feel better about the state of american film however.

Yup, she has agreed to do another Aston Magna project. Dan Stepner is an old friend and a really fine violinist. You should check out their recording of "The Triumph of Time and Truth" by Handel. Therein lurks some of me darlin's best recorded work (in my opinion). The "Lascia la spina" is astounding. The group and the other wonderful singers were just "spot on" for the whole project. Sorry you will miss them. Dominique is very curious about my C. Net aquaintances and would have been delighted to meet you and your wife. Next time.

This post has been edited by Mark Evans: 20 March 2005 - 11:03 AM

[JimLucas]

David Barnert, on Mar 20 2005, 04:24 PM, said:

...I think Jim chose those phrases more because the syllables have the appropriate rhythm to be sung to the tunes (actually, there's an extra unaccented syllable in "running").

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Depends on the version.
Your version matches the one in the Tune-o-Tron, starting: d2c BGB BGB
The version I was thinking of has that measure as: ded BGB BGB
And that does match the phrase I picked.
For yours, I should have said, "ran away with the carnival.

But I did try to pick words that both produced the rhythm and described an appropriate feeling. E.g., "standing under the mistletoe" has the right rhythm for David's verson of Drops of Brandy, but I don't think it has the right spirit. Meanwhile, another tune that has the same rhythm as my Drops of Brandy version is Humours of Whiskey, but the melody has a different contour, and I think a better phrase for that tune is "down at the pub with a drink in hand."

[lildogturpy]

JimLucas, on Mar 19 2005, 02:09 AM, said:

For that, a speed of 80-90 beats (dotted-quarter notes) per minute is often appropriate (depending on the dancer), and Hardiman the Fiddler and Old Dutch Churn (also known as The Night of Fun, and I think at least one other name) would be typical tunes.

The other name I have for the Old Dutch Churn is Fig for a Kiss. Another lovely tune, with a very similar feel is Garrett's Wedding

This post has been edited by lildogturpy: 25 March 2005 - 11:51 PM