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G/d Anglos


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#19 Wade Collins

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 11:13 PM

[quote name='Stephen Chambers' date='Mar 8 2005, 11:49 PM']
[ .

That sounds like one of those Ab/Eb's alright. George Jones had the Salvation Army contract and had to dress in uniform to go and visit General Booth (had to mind his "language" too !). Ab/Eb allowed them to play in Bb across the rows, so they had the right keys to play with the brass instruments.

Does it have the letters S A worked into the right-hand fretwork ?
[
[/

#20 Wade Collins

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Posted 09 March 2005 - 11:35 PM

[quote name='Stephen Chambers' date='Mar 8 2005, 11:49 PM']


That sounds like one of those Ab/Eb's alright. George Jones had the Salvation Army contract and had to dress in uniform to go and visit General Booth (had to mind his "language" too !). Ab/Eb allowed them to play in Bb across the rows, so they had the right keys to play with the brass instruments.

Does it have the letters S A worked into the right-hand fretwork ?


Stephen
Thank you for your reply on my post. Yes there is S A in the right hand fret work; also the Sally Ann seal is embossed into the top of the right hand end.
It is great to find out this information. I was originally sold this by a dealer as a Lachenal.

Wade Collins

#21 Stephen Chambers

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 12:40 AM

Of course instruments were made in several key combinations. Of the 'Anglos' made for resale between 1889 and 1895,
222 were in the keys of C/G
  14 were in the keys of Bb/F
    2 were in G/D
Interestingly 48 were made in B/F#. I believe there was some discussion in another thread regarding instruments in B/F#. It appears that there was some  demand for these.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Geoff,

Thanks for a very interesting answer.

It's great to have some statistical backup for my observations. So the G/D was so popular that Crabb's had to devote all of 0.699% of their Anglo production to it !

I'm none too surprised about the B/F#'s, as I have retuned a few of them (invariably to C/G), though I could never work out what they were made for in the first place ... :huh:

Perhaps the big surprise is the absence of Ab/Eb's, as plenty of those were built. Of course George Jones had the Salvation Army contract at that time, but I have seen a good few by Jeffries and others.

#22 Chris Timson

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Posted 10 March 2005 - 04:21 AM

Note. Many Crabb instruments were made using the correct size reed frames for the intended Keys but usually they would be stamped for C/G. My forbears found this easier when tuning, transposing as they went. This means that an instrument in G/D A/E Bb/F etc. may not have been altered although the reeds are stamped for a C/G.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Since I( started this thread, I am most grateful that you have replied. It seems to me, then, that the G/D has "always" been around, but at a very low level of demand until demand was stimulated by the rise of the D/G melodeon. I have quote the above paragraph, because I was not aware of this and it is most interesting to me. Was this typical across the industry, or just a Crabb practice?

Thanks,

Chris

#23 accordionmagic

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Posted 03 April 2005 - 06:44 AM

Of course instruments were made in several key combinations. Of the 'Anglos' made for resale between 1889 and 1895,
222 were in the keys of C/G
  14 were in the keys of Bb/F
    2 were in G/D
Interestingly 48 were made in B/F#. I believe there was some discussion in another thread regarding instruments in B/F#. It appears that there was some  demand for these.

It is difficult to estimate how many G/D instruments were made during the life of the firm as, after 1895, the key was rarely entered in the records but purpose built G/D's have appeared over the years.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I wish I had more time to read these forums,... very interesting thread indeed this one.
I am currently restoring a Jeffries 31 key in G/D! for Hobgoblin in manchester. This instrument is probably the oldest Jeffries I've had my hands on and was an absolute disaster area to begin with. The reeds are definately stamped for an original G/D.
Briefly; it did have ivory buttons but only a few remained so it now has a full set of brand new nickle silver ones. Over the years it had been repaired several times with Lachenal parts!! including some Lachenal actions but this has all been removed. It also has new bellows, ALL NEW EBONY, valves, pads, bushings and 6 NEW Jeffries style rivited actions. Basically a complete re-build but nearly finished.
Final stages of tuning to concert pitch as we speak.

If anyone would like to see pictures before and after then please let me know.

Roy Whiteley

#24 Pete Dickey

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Posted 03 April 2005 - 12:42 PM

Is that the Jeffries on your website Roy? If so then you seem to have done an excellent job on it. Did you replate the ends or just polish them up? When you cleaned it up inside did you remove the action entirely ?
Pete

#25 accordionmagic

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Posted 03 April 2005 - 03:32 PM

Is that the Jeffries on your website Roy? If so then you seem to have done an excellent job on it. Did you replate the ends or just polish them up? When you cleaned it up inside did you remove the action entirely ?
Pete

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Thanks Pete but the one on my website was done for Hobgoblin a couple of months ago, it's currently their 'featured item' in Manchester. That one had metal buttons from the start and was fairly intact when I started it. It was C/G and needed a full recondition.

Edited by accordionmagic, 16 April 2005 - 04:07 AM.


#26 wes williams

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Posted 04 April 2005 - 01:39 PM

This instrument is probably the oldest Jeffries I've had my hands on and was an absolute disaster area to begin with. The reeds are definately stamped for an original G/D.

Thanks for the pictures, Roy!
Looking at the second one, its noticeable that the fret on this instrument is a bit thicker than many we know of, which seems to suggest that its more 1890s than 1870s/80s, and the rough condition may be giving the impression that its older. How did you decide on its age?
best wishes ..wes

#27 accordionmagic

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 04:06 AM

Thanks for the pictures, Roy!
Looking at the second one, its noticeable that the fret on this instrument is a bit thicker than many we know of, which seems to suggest that its more 1890s than 1870s/80s, and  the rough condition may be giving the impression that its older. How did you decide on its age?
best wishes ..wes

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


OK, before I start an international incident, let me re-phrase what I said..... It is probably the oldest FILTHIEST Jeffries that I PERSONALLY have had the pleasure of restoring to as near to original condition as possible. I dont know it's age but it's very, very old.

It had a few interesting features that perhaps you could comment on. The valves were original!... i.e. only one or two had been removed/replaced/re-glued botched etc and were hand cut rectangular as I have also fitted.
Tiny nails limit the travel of the outer set of valves, not wire.
The instrument was very well tuned to an astonishing Philharmonic? pitch with A=475Hz !!!! I've had to be very carefull to bring it down to concert pitch without weakening the reeds. It has not been re-tuned before.
This instrument was not only worn out but in order to accumulate so much filth must have been left in a damp blanket in a puddle in a WWII bomb shelter since the war and only recently discovered by a team of ham fisted archaologists when unearthed by a digger along with the remains of a medieval charcoal fired furnace.
Six of the rivited actions had been replaced by Lachenal actions and I will shortly replace another two because the hole in the wire pieces have become oval and moves on the rivets.
The drone is a duck in one direction and an unwell duck in the other.
The ebony was so thin, scratched and worn through at the corners that I have re-veneered the whole thing and re-engraved the tram lines.
The buttons were a mixture of no less than five different shapes and sizes and of bone AND ivory mix. These have been replaced with metal ones and YES it is heavier now.
All brass springs were replaced with new hand wound brass ones.
The bellows were almost solid and I've replaced them with an exact as possible set of my own of identical construction.
It played for the very first time yesterday in concert pitch and I bet it hasn't played at all since 1940.
If you ask me if it was worth doing then yes it was, it sounds and feels as it should and I've loved every minute, did I make any money, then yes but not as much as Hobgoblin will!
Guilding next! well maybe.

CHEERS

Roy Whiteley

#28 wes williams

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 07:05 AM

OK, before I start an international incident, let me re-phrase what I said..... It is probably the oldest FILTHIEST Jeffries that I PERSONALLY have had the pleasure of restoring to as near to original condition as possible. I dont know it's age but it's very, very old.

Sorry Roy, it wasn't a confrontation - just trying to dig deeper into your thoughts. This instrument is interesting as we've seen another similar looking Jeffries just recently, dated as 1893. If you compare with this picture you'll see the difference in fret width. Geoff Crabb said earlier how his ancestors preferred to stamp reeds for C/G no matter what key, and its said that Jeffries started making his own completely around 1890/95, so perhaps this thicker fret and your reeds true G/D stamping could point to instruments bearing characteristics of some of the first 'whole' Jeffries made instruments?

#29 Paul Groff

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 11:02 AM

Dear Roy,

Thank you for your posts and the beautiful photographs.

A = 475 as you wrote is actually higher than the note Bb (in A= 440), which is around 466 Hertz. To me this would imply a tuning of G#/D# or Ab/Eb for the instrument as you received it, even though the reeds were evidently stamped for G/D. Even with reference to Ab/Eb, up a half-step from G/D, the instrument as you describe it would have been in a higher pitch than A = 440.

Is is possible you meant to write A = 457? This is also very high of course, since the more common concertina pitches were in the ranges of A = 439, 443, 447, and 452.5. However if A = 457 is what you meant, it would be interesting as I have a curious early semi-miniature 28 key with a Jeffries stamp (but some Jone features) that is also in its (apparently original) unequal temperament around A = 457-458. I also have a lovely "Wyper" style International 2 row button accordion in this same exact pitch and unequal temperament, and the two make a lovely pair when played together. Steinway (pianos) in the USA are reported to have used this very high pitch (around A = 458) in the late 19th century.

My apologies to you for the digression if you meant exactly what you wrote, which would also be very interesting!

Thanks again and best wishes.

Paul

Edited by Paul Groff, 05 April 2005 - 11:07 AM.


#30 accordionmagic

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 11:33 AM

A = 475 as you wrote is actually higher than the note Bb (in A= 440), which is around 466 Hertz. To me this would imply a tuning of G#/D# or Ab/Eb for the instrument as you received it, even though the reeds were evidently stamped for G/D. Even with reference to Ab/Eb, up a half-step from G/D, the instrument as you describe it would have been in a higher pitch than A = 440.

Is is possible you meant to write A = 457?

Paul

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


Hello Paul,
Well no actually, my father and I sat here one day looking at the pitch and we were both amazed at how high the instrument was tuned. All notes fell into G/d range between A=469 and 475 although I understand what you mean with Ab/Eb, perhaps it was? Still carries G/D stamps anyway.

Cheers
Roy

#31 Paul Groff

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Posted 05 April 2005 - 11:57 AM

Roy,

Thanks for the confirmation!

Just a speculation (since of course I haven't examined the instrument), but I wonder if you think the instrument might have been made as a G/D and then, concurrent with some of the very old "repairs" you noted, later tuned up to slightly high pitch Ab/Eb where you found it. If the old repitching work was professionally done and done long ago, it might not have been very apparent by the time you met the concertina.

BTW, in my experience the Jeffries instruments that I have seen and conclude to be most original in pitch and temperament, when made in keys such as Bb/F, Ab/Eb have their reeds properly stamped for the notes appropriate to those keys. So in Ab/Ebs you find reeds stamped "Db" and even "Cb" (for the enharmonic accidentals), that wouldn't even exist on a C/G. This does seem to run counter to the practice of the Crabb firm as Geofff has reported here.

Thanks again,

Paul

#32 accordionmagic

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Posted 07 April 2005 - 10:45 AM

Roy,

Thanks for the confirmation!

Just a speculation (since of course I haven't examined the instrument), but I wonder if you think the instrument might have been made as a G/D  and then, concurrent with some of the very old "repairs" you noted, later tuned up to slightly high pitch Ab/Eb where you found it.  If the old repitching work was professionally done and done long ago, it might not have been very apparent by the time you met the concertina.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I can see where your going with this, ofcourse it's possible but it must have been done very carefully, there was hardly a mark on the reeds (under the speckles of rust). Maybe it was tuned for Salvation Brass?

Anyway, ALL photo's can now be seen at www.accordionmagic.com, go via galleries to concertina section, gallery 16.

REGARDS

Roy

#33 wes williams

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 12:41 PM

It seems to me, then, that the G/D has "always" been around, but at a very low level of demand until demand was stimulated by the rise of the D/G melodeon.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But maybe we are being too blinkered by only thinking about English makes? I've just got Volume 3 of "Amateur Work Illustrated", a reprint c.1893, but the original would have been mid/late 1880s. It has an article "Concertina and Melodeon Tuning and Repairing" by Henry Dryerre which is about 'German' types and says:
Each maker seems at liberty to adopt any note he may consider best for the scale of his instruments, consequently, from a dozen concertinas,taken at random, eight or nine different scales may be found: D, E flat, E, F,G, A flat, and A, being in pretty frequent use.
Its also interesting that nowhere in the article does it mention anything other than 20 key instruments.

Edit to add: View the article here

Edited by wes williams, 15 April 2005 - 12:26 PM.


#34 Stephen Chambers

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Posted 14 April 2005 - 03:57 PM

It seems to me, then, that the G/D has "always" been around, but at a very low level of demand until demand was stimulated by the rise of the D/G melodeon.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But maybe we are being too blinkered by only thinking about English makes?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well, I did mention :

I have a German example that appears to be in high pitch G/D, assuming that it was made at English (half a semitone sharp), rather than German (half a semitone flat) pitch ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>


I've just got Volume 3 of "Amateur Work Illustrated", a reprint c.1893, but the original would have been mid/late 1880s. It has an article "Concertina and Melodeon Tuning and Repairing" by Henry Dryerre which is about 'German' types and says:
Each maker seems at liberty to adopt any note he may consider best for the scale of his instruments, consequently, from a dozen concertinas,taken at random, eight or nine different scales may be found: D, E flat, E, F,G, A flat, and A, being in pretty frequent use.
Its also interesting that nowhere in the article does it mention anything other than 20 key instruments.

I'm sure that there were far more 20-key German concertinas in circulation at that time than anything else, especially after the "boom" they had in the 1860's. But a big problem seems to have been that they made them in so many different keys, and pitches, so that it could be hard to find two, of different models, that could be played together.

#35 wes williams

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 04:01 AM

I'm sure that there were far more 20-key German concertinas in circulation at that time than anything else, especially after the "boom" they had in the 1860's. But a big problem seems to have been that they made them in so many different keys, and pitches, so that it could be hard to find two, of different models, that could be played together.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

So while Chris has phrased it in terms of "demand", it seems to be more that the buyer got the key that a particular maker had used. The article also suggests that many instruments were double reeded, and gives instruction on how to tune these kind of instruments, including:
There is a class termed "Celestial", which, properly, should have one note tuned the slightest degree sharper than the other.
so playing together would have been even more difficult.

#36 Stephen Chambers

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Posted 15 April 2005 - 06:06 AM

So while Chris has phrased it in terms of "demand", it seems to be more that the buyer got the key that a particular maker had used.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

It also applied to harmonicas and melodeons, and to some degree it would still be true today, many models not being available in the "right" keys for Irish players.

It seems to be why the key of C became so predominant in many forms of folk music (including English traditional), being that most readily available in free reed instruments.


The article also suggests that many instruments were double reeded, and gives instruction on how to tune these kind of instruments, including:
There is a class termed "Celestial", which, properly, should have one note tuned the slightest degree sharper than the other.

George Jones also used that term, as he claimed to have in "1859 made the Celestial English and Anglo Concertina." At the time "Celestial" was being used to describe a tremolo-tuned (double-reeded) German concertina, and "Organ Tone" an octave-tuned (double or triple-reeded) one.

Edited by Stephen Chambers, 16 April 2005 - 04:45 PM.





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