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What's This Tuning Temperament?


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#1 harpomatic

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Posted 07 January 2018 - 10:39 AM

Friends, what's the tuning temperament in this EC: A442 and doubling as it should throughout the range on those "A"s, while my doubled enharmonics are clearly differently tuned? It's clearly not ET, but not one of those antiquated A 452 or 436, or such, either. Produces nice chords, as expected, seems to work with modern stuff, too - A442 is close to modern concert pitch, currently in use by about half of all tunable instruments, as the modern concert pitch. ?.

Edited by harpomatic, 07 January 2018 - 10:45 AM.


#2 Anglo-Irishman

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Posted 07 January 2018 - 01:42 PM

Harpo,

 

"A=442", "A=436" etc. are not temperaments, but rather concert pitches. An instrument can be equal tempered, just or meantone at any concert pitch.

Temperament has to do with the intervals between the notes. The differently tuned enharmonics are an indication that the concertina is not in equal temperament.To determine exactly what non-equal-tempered tuning you have, you'd have to use an electronic tuner (adjusted for your A=442) to ascertain how many cents what notes are flat or sharp of ET. Then ask the experts on this Forum!

 

Cheers,

John



#3 harpomatic

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 12:49 AM

John, thanks for pointing out lack of relevant info (though I know that concert pitch isn't any temperament:), I was hoping that perhaps a given "modern" pitch + just a mere fact of different enharmonics may lead to a quick guess. Wrong assumption on my part, but your advice lead to a good session of more precise measuring on a better tuner (though, who knows, really), and I get a pretty consistent read out for the first time:
First,
my A is 443 (not 442).
All my Ab, Eb, Bb are +15 cents sharp, throughout the instrument.
All F#, C#, G# and D# are -15 cents flat.
All B's are -5, F's and C's are +5.
I never really play anything other than ET, so never got into particularities of other temperaments, though I have a good basic understanding of what's at play. On a retunable instrument, like pedal steel, there's much discussion about temperaments, but I am an ET believer, so just tune to that and "meantone" me not, so to say... However, this tuning sounds very nice, and seems to be consistent and deliberate, which rules out just being out of tune. Got me curious as to what it actually is.

Edited by harpomatic, 08 January 2018 - 01:07 AM.


#4 lachenal74693

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 02:43 AM

Once upon a time, there was an article on c.net -  Notes on Concertina Pitch, Wes Williams, 2001

 
I found it useful and interesting. In this context, it may be of interest - if you can find it (I couldn't):
 

The requested URL /ww_pitch.html was not found on this server.

 

Roger


Edited by lachenal74693, 08 January 2018 - 02:50 AM.


#5 alex_holden

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 03:00 AM

Once upon a time, there was an article on c.net -  Notes on Concertina Pitch, Wes Williams, 2001
 
I found it useful and interesting. In this context, it may be of interest - if you can find it (I couldn't):
 

The requested URL /ww_pitch.html was not found on this server.
 
Roger


I found a copy in the Wayback Machine:
https://web.archive....0/ww_pitch.html

#6 lachenal74693

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 07:09 AM

 

I found a copy in the Wayback Machine:

https://web.archive....0/ww_pitch.html

 

Ta. I had a look on WBM as well, but couldn't find it....

 

R



#7 Greg Jowaisas

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 07:53 AM

Given your tuning readings they "suggest" (though not exact) 1/5 comma mean tone tuning to me.

 

Greg



#8 Geoff Wooff

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 08:32 AM

Go to    

 

www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory27.htm    for  much information  on Pitches and Temperaments.

 

There is a post  or  two      on this forum    where there are lists of figures  in Cent  deviations from  ET  for several Meantone  scales.



#9 Greg Jowaisas

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 09:19 AM

www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory27.htm  Wow!  Thanks Geoff!  Enough information to make my head ache for years. :rolleyes:



#10 harpomatic

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 10:13 AM

Thank you fellas, seems like Greg zeroed in on the answer here - upon closer inspection and after reading up on the 1/5 mean tone here on Cnet, it does sound like the correct identification. I was checking with a "better" tuner, but not the best, cents read in increments of 5, so (very) few cents here and there probably can account for "not exact", as Greg put it, but still very convincing temperament identification. Fascinating stuff!

Edited by harpomatic, 08 January 2018 - 10:14 AM.


#11 SteveS

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 11:24 AM

Geoff  - thanks for posting the www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory27.htm link - what an amazing resource!

 

With so many Mean Tone temperaments, I'm not sure which to use for 1/4 & 1/5 comma - anyone got any ideas?


Edited by SteveS, 08 January 2018 - 11:37 AM.


#12 harpomatic

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 11:45 AM

Steve, based on my understanding of a current situation, 1/5 is preferable, its a bit closer to Et, sweetened chords, but still not too clashing with ET tuned playing partners (given that you're tuned to the same concert pitch.) The genius of EC is that you get both enharmonics, this way the layout makes so much more sence... (correct me if I am wrong, I just started my excursion into this meantone territory)

Edited by harpomatic, 08 January 2018 - 11:51 AM.


#13 adrian brown

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 11:57 AM

Geoff  - thanks for posting the www.dolmetsch.com/musictheory27.htm link - what an amazing resource!

 

With so many Mean Tone temperaments, I'm not sure which to use for 1/4 & 1/5 comma - anyone got any ideas?

 

Steve, we discussed this here a while ago:

 

http://www.concertin...ic=18877&page=1

 

I was hoping somebody having access to both a 1/5th meantone tuned concertina and one in ET would do a similar video because I think it would be very useful to compare the two.

Anyone want to volunteer?

 

Adrian



#14 harpomatic

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 12:00 PM

What I don't completely understand yet, is the "zero" note vs the "home" note, to which the whole thing is tuned. Based on what I read thus far, the "zero" note may be, say, A (440 or whatever else), while the "home" note to which the entire instrument is tuned may be some other note, G or C, or D for example. As if an instrument is in a particular key, which with ET, it isn't (talking about EC here)... So, I get the concept, but how to determine my "home" key - a bit confused there.
Ps. My guess it's C, red buttons and all, but is it, really?

Edited by harpomatic, 08 January 2018 - 12:04 PM.


#15 Don Taylor

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 12:31 PM

Perhaps an EC could be called a C instrument because the middle two rows spell out the C scale?  That is the easiest key to play, all of the other keys require out of pattern fingering.

 

By the same token, it is pretty obvious how to label an Anglo according to the keys on the bottom two rows (C/G, G/D, etc), but what about a duet? 

 

I think that I would label a Hayden according to whatever 'easy-peasy' keys it covers, so a Peacock would be C/D/E/F/G/A, a Beaumont would add Bb to this range: Bb/C/D/E/F/G/A.  You can play the other keys but again you need (way) out of pattern fingering.  Or you could say that a Hayden is a C instrument with a built-in capo ...



#16 Wolf Molkentin

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 12:53 PM

I was hoping somebody having access to both a 1/5th meantone tuned concertina and one in ET would do a similar video because I think it would be very useful to compare the two.

Anyone want to volunteer?

 
Geoff has been thinking in this respect for more than 1 1/2 years...

 

Come to a conclusion?

 

:ph34r:



#17 Geoff Wooff

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 01:20 PM

Wolf  &  Adrian,

 

I  currently  do  not  own an  EC in ET.  The one I had    last  year went back to  the  man I'd bought it from... he  missed  it  so much :huh: .

 

Steve;   I  have a preference  for 1/5th  Comma  .  If it is numbers  you  are looking for  I did post these  in an earlier  discussion  on Meantone.  I'll see if I can locate it.....

 

 

PS:   entering  'Meantone'    in the search box  will  give access  to quite a few discussions  on the subject.


Edited by Geoff Wooff, 08 January 2018 - 01:29 PM.


#18 SteveS

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Posted 08 January 2018 - 01:40 PM

Geoff, Wolf, Adrian

 

There are many alternative temperaments in the Dolmetsch link - take a look towards the end of the page - there are dropdown controls for selecting different MT temperaments - there are loads of 1/4 and 1/5 comma temperaments.






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