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Replacing Reeds For A Deeper Sounding Concertina?


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#1 Tarquin Biscuitbox

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 03:51 AM

If I bought a concertina with accordion reeds, would I be able to replace them with ones that have a deeper sound? 

 

Please let me know your thoughts...  

 



#2 papawemba

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 07:29 AM

Can't help but I have the same question :-) 

If I buy a cheap concertina like the Elise (duet) from connection, will I be able to change reeds to a better quality reeds ? And where to find them :-)

What concertina do you imply ? 



#3 Tarquin Biscuitbox

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 09:57 AM

I was also thinking of changing the reeds on an Elise Duet! I sent an email about this to Concertina Connection and they replied... 

 

'not possible for several reasons: lower reeds are larger and won’t fit, lower reeds are not available, lower reeds need a different airflow value, which requires redesigning airflow patterns....'
Regards,
William
Concertina Connection Inc.
Wakker Concertinas
 
Many thanks to William. I'm probably going to buy an Elise as I've read lots of good things about them. 
I'd just like to know if anyone else has experimented with this idea?  


#4 Mikefule

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 10:56 AM

If you mean lower in tone, then lower means either a longer reed (which won't fit) or a heavier reed which will take more air to shift and won't be responsive.  If you mean lower in a less technical sense of "rounder and less tinny" then it may be possible, but why?  An instrument is designed as a whole.  You can make minor tweaks, and get reeds properly set (for better response) and tuned, but in the long run, the answer is to upgrade the instrument when you know exactly what you want.



#5 Ken_Coles

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 11:02 AM

I was going to quote Wim Wakker at C. Connection also...several folks have inquired about a G/D version of their hybrid Clover anglo, and a corresponding Clover kit (currently available in C/G).  I had good luck building my Clover and would love a G/D version.  Wim has pointed out that he would need to redesign the air chambers and reed layout.  If the market were to look big enough I expect he would do it, but evidently that is not yet the case. 

 

In the meantime I have a G/D Stagi that is not too bad (don't tell anyone I said that), the action having been extensively reworked by one or more prior owners.

 

Ken



#6 inventor

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Posted 20 September 2017 - 12:39 PM

In reply to papawemba's question of replacing the reeds in an Elise with ones of a better quality at the same pitch; I understood that Wim Wakker could supply a kit. This was discussed in an earlier thread on concertina.net about a year back,

 

Inventor.


Edited by inventor, 20 September 2017 - 12:40 PM.


#7 papawemba

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Posted 21 September 2017 - 03:12 AM

He he Tarquin Biscuitbox, we had the same idea ! I don't have the Elise yet (but on its way here !), I let you know what I think.

As I understand from this thread, it is not possible to put "lower note" reeds (like Baritone) as chamber is too small. But it is possible to put same pitch reeds which is good news.

Meanwhile I saw on Connection site that they even explain how to do it ! 

 

Thanks inventor, I wonder if kit sold by Wim Waker are of better quality than the one already set in Elise...I'll probably ask someday when I feel like changings reeds lol First thing is to test the Elise….but it is always good to know it’s possible to change reeds in the future !

 

Nicolas



#8 Jody Kruskal

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 01:15 AM

I've been playing a borrowed Morse Baritone C/G ESB made by the Button Box. It's an octave lower than normal and sounds sweet. http://www.buttonbox.../morse-ESB.html

 

In looking, they have one in stock and also a D/A like it. Exceptional instrument. Not recommended for a morris tour as those bass notes are not loud, but they sure are a pleasure to play.



#9 papawemba

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 02:56 AM

Well played Jody Kruskal ! I really like that sound, round low notes.

Why not put some quality reeds like that on a cheaper concertina, would it make sense ? 

 

Best



#10 Don Taylor

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Posted 22 September 2017 - 09:12 AM

I've been playing a borrowed Morse Baritone C/G ESB made by the Button Box. It's an octave lower than normal and sounds sweet. http://www.buttonbox.../morse-ESB.html

Wow, they do sound good. 

 

Have the Button Box cracked the problem of muddy sounding low notes on an accordion-reeded instrument?  (Maybe it is the player and not just the instrument).

 

I wonder if the baritone EC's sound as good.



#11 ceemonster

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 02:17 AM

I don't see it being a good proposition replacing reeds in a cheap Asian-made concertina.  The action, bellows, frames, and pans are simply not high-quality enough to make this anything but a money-loser as an investment.  Plus, you really want premium-grade accordion reeds ("tipo-a-mano" or TAM, also known as "hand-finished" reeds), for the quicker reed response.  That's not a good expenditure on a lesser-grade concertina.  

 

All regular-pitch concertinas are squawky, and particularly high-pitched in the upper notes.  A premium-grade, wood-ended Anglo concertina might get you a richer, warmer sound, but it's going to be the same pitch, and you're still going to have some upper-range squawk, that is the concertina personality.   Not everyone cares for the sound of concertina, which is considered an acquired taste by some listeners I've canvassed, and this is the most-cited reason.   For "deeper," you'd probably need to go for a Baritone as noted by posters above.    Many Baritones, though the deeper voice is beautiful, do not respond fast enough to be terribly useful for anything but slow chordal playing, often as backing to vocals. 

 

However, the Morse accordion-reeded Baris do seem to be something of a breakthrough in this department.  The  ESB Anglo is a marvel of engineering in terms of the response quickness for a Baritone.    I can't find it, but there is a thread here after the ESB Anglo came out, where someone from Morse explained internal engineering improvements they developed, to make their Bari Anglos respond more quickly, including and especially engineering improvements to the lowest (usually slowest-responding) notes.    Additionally, it is my understanding that tipo-a-mano (TAM) reeds are standard in the Morse ESB Anglos, another enhancement for quicker response.   (I should also note, I think I recall reading a post in some thread noting the Edgeley Baritone Anglos also had a wonderful response, and sounded very much like concertina reeds.)

 

[[[I wonder if the [Morse] baritone EC's sound as good.]]]  They do, at least from my own experience with a Morse Geordie EC.  However, that is with these caveats: 

 

1--In the posting I mentioned above by the Morse person about improvements to the Baritones, they noted these improvements were developed first for the Anglo ESB and then later applied to the ECs, and that Morse Geordie Baritone ECs after XXXX date would have these engineering improvements.  So your Morse Geordie Baritone must be built after that point, whatever it was.  2012, 2013,  something like that.  They could confirm.

 

2---The Morse ESB Anglo has higher-grade, premium "TAM" (tipo-a-mano aka "hand-finished") reeds as standard.  On the Geordie EC Baritone, I believe they are an option for an extra $100-ish.  This option is a must in a Baritone IMHO.  I personally would not purchase ANY high-quality accordion-reeded concertina that did NOT have hand or TAM reeds, but for sure, you want them in a Baritone.  In addition to being a bit brighter (which helps clarify the "muddy" low Baritone notes), they respond a bit quicker, than "factory" reeds, and you need that in a Baritone.   Perhaps they are standard by now in the Morse Geordie Bari ECs, they certainly should be for the price.  But if they're not, I highly recommend coughing up the dosh and getting this option.

 

I have a Morse Geordie EC Baritone with the TAM reed option, and it's astonishingly quick, responsive, and clear-voiced.   It is not as fast as a Treble, and might not be fast enough for Irish tunes at the hyper-fast speed in fashion with some of the ITM "super-bands,"   However, it plays a relaxed, traditional Clare/East Galway speed very nicely at a brisk swingy tempo quite surprising in a Baritone, and sounds wonderful for tango and Eastern European stuff.    Tone-wise, I dunno, it might be my favorite concertina.  I kind of prefer it to regular pitch.


Edited by ceemonster, 23 September 2017 - 02:31 AM.


#12 Don Taylor

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 05:53 AM

Thank you, ceemonster, for a very useful post.

 

I did take a listen to the videos of the Geordie baritones on the Button Box site and thought that the tone was not as good as the ESB videos - a bit buzzy in the low notes and not as clear and direct in the higher notes. 

 

I wonder if those are older videos (pre-ESB mods) perhaps with the  standard reeds.



#13 ceemonster

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Posted 23 September 2017 - 05:57 AM

I am almost certain the video clips are with the standard reeds.  Unlike the ESB, the EC Geordie Baritone does not have TAM reeds as standard.  I paid for mine as an option.     My instrument does sound subtly different from the clips.  There is also a person who several years back posted a slew of Geordie Baritone clips on youtube, and my instrument sounds different from those as well. 


Edited by ceemonster, 23 September 2017 - 06:03 AM.





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