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Sounding An 7Th Chord On A Hayden Concertina


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#1 darticus

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Posted 02 April 2017 - 10:36 AM

I use the normal major triangle chord. To make it a 7th I think you add the button before the major root button. This would be 4 buttons pushed at once. Is This the best way? It sounds maybe too full with 4 buttons down. Do you pros leave one out??? Thanks Ron

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Edited by darticus, 02 April 2017 - 10:44 AM.


#2 Spectacled Warbler

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Posted 02 April 2017 - 11:48 AM

I find 4 note chords a bit muddy usually, and use them sparingly.      I play most of my chords on the left hand, so that's what I'll refer to here.    I try to use as many different ways as I can to play any chord to add a bit of variety to the sound.    Before I decide how to play a chord, I write down all the notes in the chord - say C7 = C,E,G, Bb, then find where those notes are on my instrument. 

 

I then look at all the different ways I can play some or all of those notes, and decide what combinations I think sound best at each point in the song / tune where a C7th chord is needed..    

 

 I usually omit either the 3rd or the 5th, so in C that would be C, G, Bb, or C, E, Bb.  

 

Sometimes I only play 2 notes, that's any one of the C chord notes (C, E, or G) plus the Bb 7th note - it all depends what sound I want or what I'm playing before / after the 7th chord, and what anybody else might be playing.  

 

Sometimes I play the Bb above the C, sometimes I play the one immediately below it,  - with an accordian reeded instrument this can sound ok as there are lots of harmonics which stop the two notes clashing and sounding ugly.    

 

Sometimes I only play the 7th (Bb) note sustained on its own, as a change from 3 note chords played before / after  - to make the accompaniment more interesting or as part of a bass run.      

 

Sometimes I ignore the fact that it's a 7th because I can't find a way to play a 7th that sounds good to me. 

 

Just some ideas - there are no rights or wrongs - it's your instrument, your music, if you enjoy the sound you make and it fits with anybody else you're playing with, then it's fine.        

 

Good luck, have fun!  

 

 

Joy



#3 Noel Ways

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Posted 02 April 2017 - 03:14 PM

I agree with what Joy mentions above!  

 

However, I do still use large chords - but this only because I inserted a baffle on left side.  Without the left side volume being controlled, chords on the left side should be limited to two or three notes.  More that this, the melody will be drowned out.

 

I personally do not think that a Hayden should be sold without a baffle option.  The nature of the instrument calls for one - particularly in the early stages of musical development with this great key layout.  Don Taylor has an excellent photo presentation on how to make one, if interested:

 

http://www.concertin...topic=17355&hl=

 

Honestly, if I could not control the left side volume, I would have probably migrated to another system by now.  If you do decide to insert a baffle, I could give you some tips if interested.

 

---

 

More recently, I am able to play a melody on the right side and now have the chords split between BOTH left and right sides.  Working toward this end might also help to solve this issue.


Edited by Noel Ways, 02 April 2017 - 03:17 PM.


#4 darticus

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Posted 02 April 2017 - 03:19 PM

I agree with what Joy mentions above!  

 

However, I do still use large chords - but this only because I inserted a baffle on left side.  Without the left side volume being controlled, chords on the left side should be limited to two or three notes.  More that this, the melody will be drowned out.

 

I personally do not think that a Hayden should be sold without a baffle option.  The nature of the instrument calls for one - particularly in the early stages of musical development with this great key layout.  Don Taylor has an excellent photo presentation on how to make one, if interested:

 

http://www.concertin...topic=17355&hl=

 

Honestly, if I could not control the left side volume, I would have probably migrated to another system by now.  If you do decide to insert a baffle, I could give you some tips if interested.

 

---

 

More recently, I am able to play a melody on the right side and now have the chords split between BOTH left and right sides.  Working toward this end might also help to solve this issue.

That was my problem too loud on the left with 4 notes. Baffle sounds good. I have to check out the link and any info you have. Maybe just leaving 2 buttons not played on a 7th will help. Should be able to test a baffle by adding it to the outside of the concertina. Thanks Ron


Edited by darticus, 02 April 2017 - 03:46 PM.


#5 inventor

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 10:09 AM

I usually play dominant sevenths leaving out the 5th and in a straight line e.g. for D7 :-

 

(   )   (c')   (d')   (   )   (f#')   (   )

 

A useful alternative to the basic "3 Chord Trick" for instance G major, C major, D major in the key of G; is G major, A minor, D dominant seventh.

Starting with the usual G major triangle ( g, b, d' ), turn it upside down for A Minor ( a, c', e' ); then keeping the c' in the same place spread out into the the partial D7 line as above; and from this position keeping the d' in the same place you can drop back to the G major chord.

 

Inventor.      



#6 darticus

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 02:06 PM

I usually play dominant sevenths leaving out the 5th and in a straight line e.g. for D7 :-

 

(   )   (c')   (d')   (   )   (f#')   (   )

 

A useful alternative to the basic "3 Chord Trick" for instance G major, C major, D major in the key of G; is G major, A minor, D dominant seventh.

Starting with the usual G major triangle ( g, b, d' ), turn it upside down for A Minor ( a, c', e' ); then keeping the c' in the same place spread out into the the partial D7 line as above; and from this position keeping the d' in the same place you can drop back to the G major chord.

 

Inventor.      

Interesting I will give it a try. Thanks Ron



#7 David Barnert

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 01:49 AM

I rarely play more than two simultaneous notes in the left hand. Be aware of what you’re playing with the right hand. It will probably contain one or more notes of the prevailing chord. Those notes may be omitted from the left hand.



#8 Anglo-Irishman

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 02:51 AM

I rarely play more than two simultaneous notes in the left hand. Be aware of what you’re playing with the right hand. It will probably contain one or more notes of the prevailing chord. Those notes may be omitted from the left hand.

That's a good tip. I first heard it from an accordeonist.

As an example, if you're playing a piece in C major, and the melody note is an F when the harmonisation calls for a G7 chord, then you ony need a G major chord - G-B-D - in the left hand. Together with the right-hand F, this gives you G-B-D-F, which is the G7 chord.

 

I suppose this is part of what is meant by left-right hand coordination. It's important for any duet system, but above all for the Anglo, where it's all too easy to mash down on full left-hand chords, even when they're counter-productive!

 

Cheers,

John



#9 darticus

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 05:46 AM

 

I rarely play more than two simultaneous notes in the left hand. Be aware of what you’re playing with the right hand. It will probably contain one or more notes of the prevailing chord. Those notes may be omitted from the left hand.

That's a good tip. I first heard it from an accordeonist.

As an example, if you're playing a piece in C major, and the melody note is an F when the harmonisation calls for a G7 chord, then you ony need a G major chord - G-B-D - in the left hand. Together with the right-hand F, this gives you G-B-D-F, which is the G7 chord.

 

I suppose this is part of what is meant by left-right hand coordination. It's important for any duet system, but above all for the Anglo, where it's all too easy to mash down on full left-hand chords, even when they're counter-productive!

 

Cheers,

John

 

Very Good Tip. Thanks Ron



#10 darticus

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 05:48 AM

Thanks all for the tips. Ron



#11 Don Taylor

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 07:12 AM

I usually play dominant sevenths leaving out the 5th and in a straight line e.g. for D7 :-
 
(   )   (c')   (d')   (   )   (f#')   (   )

This does not sound pleasant on my accordion reeded Peacock. All the low thirds sound ugly (to me anyway). Maybe on a concertina reeded box it would be OK. This D7 is not so bad on the RHS of my Peacock, but I still do not like it much. It is not the tension in the D7 that I object to, it is the dissonance and muddiness in the third.

Playing the same chord, but including the fifth and leaving out the third sounds much sweeter.

#12 Don Taylor

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 07:25 AM

I rarely play more than two simultaneous notes in the left hand. Be aware of what youre playing with the right hand. It will probably contain one or more notes of the prevailing chord. Those notes may be omitted from the left hand.

David

Forgive me if you have answered this before. I know that you avoid doubling a note between the melody and the accompaniment, but what about playing an octave lower in the accompaniment?

I think (I may be wrong) you have said that you try to avoid doing this but pianists do it all the time, sometimes spanning 2 or three octaves.

#13 darticus

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 09:23 AM

Thanks all for all the great tips. Ron



#14 David Barnert

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 02:42 PM

 

I rarely play more than two simultaneous notes in the left hand. Be aware of what youre playing with the right hand. It will probably contain one or more notes of the prevailing chord. Those notes may be omitted from the left hand.

David

Forgive me if you have answered this before. I know that you avoid doubling a note between the melody and the accompaniment, but what about playing an octave lower in the accompaniment?

I think (I may be wrong) you have said that you try to avoid doing this but pianists do it all the time, sometimes spanning 2 or three octaves.

 

Are you referring to a comment I made years ago (March, 2008, see here and here) in response to a video that Boney (Jeff Lefferts) posted? What I was objecting to was not doubling the octave on a particular note, but doing that on two consecutive notes, what the academics call “parallel octaves.” Certainly, if I’m playing a tune in G and the first note is G (“Twinkle Twinkle Little Star,” for instance), I will start my rendition with both hands playing G in different octaves, and nothing else. I will fill in the rest of the chord on the off-beat, while the right hand is playing the 2nd G. Bach did the exact same thing with the opening notes of the Aria from the "Goldberg Variations” (see the 2nd page of the linked pdf). Both hands play nothing but G (two octaves apart) with the B and the D coming in the left hand on successive beats.

 

Did that answer your question, Don?



#15 Don Taylor

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 04:37 PM

David

Yes, very clearly. Thx.

Don.

#16 Don Taylor

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Posted 05 April 2017 - 08:54 PM

David:

 

Maybe one more question: 

 

You mention avoiding parallel octaves but I understand that parallel fifths are also to be avoided.  If so, then is that any parallel fifth or just a parallel fifth that includes the melody line. 

 

In other words, if the LHS accompaniment includes a good sprinkling of fifths some of which are consecutive then are these consecutive fifths also considered to be parallel fifths and to be avoided?  

 

I seem to finish up using a lot of fifths in my accompaniments and, although the cat objects mightily, they sound OK to me as long as I occasionally break them up with something else.

 

I hear a lot of fifths used in rock music and also in fiddle music.  I understand that many melodeon players permanently tape off the thirds in their LH chords which would mean that they are playing lots of fifths in their accompaniment.



#17 David Barnert

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 02:10 AM

Oy. Parallel 5ths and the Hayden. Yes: the rules are the same, and in classical music theory inner voices count as melodies so the rule applies there as well. But the way the Hayden is set up they're pretty much unavoidable between the bass and an inner voice and so my playing is full of them, and for reasons I do not understand I do not find them objectionable.

 
As you suggest, I do avoid parallel 5ths between the bass and the melody. For this reason, I cannot comfortably play "Randolph Farewell," a lovely waltz written by my friend, Tom Siess. As I believe it is under copyright, I will not reproduce it here, but link to it elsewhere on the web. I've always seen it in G, but this source provides it in both F and G. Note that the chords, as provided, lead to parallel 5ths between the bass and the melody in at least four places (and also some parallel octaves that I won't point out): the last note of the 2nd bar to the 1st note of the 3rd bar, the last note of the 10th bar to the 1st note of the 11th bar, the last note of the 22nd bar to the 1st note of the 23rd bar, and the last note of the 24th bar to the 1st note of the 25th bar.
 
By altering some of the chords I can make some of them go away, but the last one is particularly unavoidable and grating, particularly since it is the climax of the tune. I cannot play it without making my teeth hurt, and so I don't.


#18 Don Taylor

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Posted 07 April 2017 - 08:44 AM

David:

THank you once again, you have assuaged my nagging guilt about using of parallel fifths!

I keep promising myself to go through all of your old messages to cut and paste all of your advice into one big cheat sheet. A veritable gold mine.



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