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A Baffling Anglo - Confused Of Cheshire


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#1 nkgibbs

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 02:02 PM

Dear C.netters,

 

I have just received this Anglo with a mixture of features (see photos) that make it very hard to work out the maker.

It definitely looks English, I have eliminated the obvious makers from my enquiries, I don't think that it is a Tidder...........

 

All input is very welcome!

 

Cheers,

Neil

 

138 Photos.jpeg


Edited by nkgibbs, 21 March 2017 - 02:04 PM.


#2 Stephen Chambers

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 10:40 PM

Well it's marked L 1958 in the left side, so presumably R 1958 in the right, which would certainly suggest it was made in England. In fact, apart from the fretwork it looks very much like a Lachenal in the photos (though they could be clearer) - could it be a Louis Lachenal that somebody made new ends for?



#3 nkgibbs

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 05:19 AM

Thanks Stephen, 

Glad to see that maybe my confusion was justified! Did Louis Lachenal use rubber stamps for serial numbers? The blue/purple rubber stamping on the bellow frame and reed pan looks particularly distinctive?

It may be a bit indistinct in the photos but there is also a larger,  embossed number (827) stamped on the lhs handle. This is pure conjecture but did groups/bands like the Salvation Army mark concertinas like this?

Neil


Edited by nkgibbs, 22 March 2017 - 06:58 AM.


#4 nicx66

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 09:43 AM

If you could get a close up of the serial # on the reed pan for the right hand side, I could compare it to my Tidder. I am no expert, but my guess would be Lachenal with a one-off fretwork. The action board looks like fruitwood. On my Tidder, the action board is pine (I believe). The fretwork on yours looks like it could have accommodated a 6 over 6 button layout.



#5 Stephen Chambers

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 11:58 AM

Did Louis Lachenal use rubber stamps for serial numbers? The blue/purple rubber stamping on the bellow frame and reed pan looks particularly distinctive?

 

No, they didn't, but I couldn't see that - it's not apparent to me in the small format of your montage of photos. That sounds more like "Tidder" or a German maker then. Do all the serial numbers match?



#6 nkgibbs

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 07:37 AM

Dear Stephen and Nicx66,

Many thanks for your comments.

The serial numbers on the pans and bellow frames all match and seem to be made with a rubber stamp with blue/purple ink. The RHS versions are in exactly the same format as the LHS.

 

I seem to have exceeded my image attachment limit on C.net so can't show you clearer photos; does anyone know how to solve this ?

 

Thanks agin,

Neil

 

 



#7 Stephen Chambers

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 08:33 AM

There are various servers you can use to host your photos online Neil. I've used photobucket.com for years, though they've become frustratingly much more difficult to deal with recently and I'm afraid I would no longer recommend them to anybody. :(



#8 John Wild

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 09:18 AM

I use box.com

 

https://www.box.com/...cing/individual



#9 nicx66

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 02:10 PM

In another thread, a fellow c-net member pointed out that the "R" stamp on Tidders, used to notate the right hand side reed pan, has a distinctive shape, which you will notice on this page http://www.concertin...l=tidder&page=3. Not to be confused with the larger "R" stamp used on the bellows frame. Hope this helps.


Edited by nicx66, 25 March 2017 - 08:50 AM.


#10 Patrick McMahon

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 06:05 AM

I agree it looks very like a Lachenal, apart from the ends. 

And a serial number of 1958 would indicate someone who made a lot of concertinas.

 

The only thing against the Lachenal with replacement ends idea, is the palm rests. Why would you make new ones, rather than re-use the Lachenal ones? In which case they would have had the trade mark.

Or would a Lachenal with the 1958 serial actually have the Lachenal reed trade mark on the rests?



#11 JimmyM

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 10:02 AM

I dont have it here to compare as Ive just given it to Nigel Sture for some repair work but it looks exactly like my Lachenal



#12 nkgibbs

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 11:16 AM

Many thanks for all your interesting comments....I have taken John's Box advice...

 

Please find higher resolution photos of this mysterious concertina here (I hope!).

 

The rubber stamps, small on the reed pans and larger on the bellows' frames are really confusing and I would have thought, rule out Lachenal (Louis or & Co)?

 

 

 

Neil


Edited by nkgibbs, 24 March 2017 - 11:27 AM.


#13 Stephen Chambers

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 06:08 PM

I agree it looks very like a Lachenal, apart from the ends. 


The only thing against the Lachenal with replacement ends idea, is the palm rests. Why would you make new ones, rather than re-use the Lachenal ones? In which case they would have had the trade mark.

Or would a Lachenal with the 1958 serial actually have the Lachenal reed trade mark on the rests?

 

No, a Lachenal with the serial number 1958 would have been very early, and not have had the Lachenal reed trade mark on the rest because trede marks were not introduced until 1875 (and Lachenal's only applied for their reed one in 1878). Also the rests would have been long on an early one, like these, becoming shorter on later models.

 

But I abandoned that hypothesis as soon as I learned that the serial number was rubber-stamped...



#14 nkgibbs

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 03:14 AM

Stephen et al,

 

I would be very interested to hear your diagnosis after seeing all the photos?

 

Neil



#15 hielandman

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Posted 03 April 2017 - 12:07 PM

Hello everyone, 

it is not a Lachenal at all.  The end fretwork, though similar, is different than Lachenal work.  The three main things disqualifying it as a Lachenal are the inked serial numbers, the dark wood on the action board, AND the PIVOT POST for the lever arm to go through.  I have an almost identical concertina that Greg J. and I think to be a Nickolds.  But, with no label or other ID, no one really knows! He also thought it may have been a Jones, due to the reeds.  We don't really know what it is, but we know what it isn't!  I sent some pictures of it to Neil Wayne a few years ago, but he never responded, we were hoping he knew!  Any other ideas?

 

Don



#16 d.elliott

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Posted 06 April 2017 - 12:29 PM

Don't think it's a Jones, the reeds are not broad enough, or so the photo's seem to indicate



#17 nkgibbs

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Posted 12 April 2017 - 05:10 PM

 

I agree it looks very like a Lachenal, apart from the ends. 

The only thing against the Lachenal with replacement ends idea, is the palm rests. Why would you make new ones, rather than re-use the Lachenal ones? In which case they would have had the trade mark.
Or would a Lachenal with the 1958 serial actually have the Lachenal reed trade mark on the rests?

 
No, a Lachenal with the serial number 1958 would have been very early, and not have had the Lachenal reed trade mark on the rest because trede marks were not introduced until 1875 (and Lachenal's only applied for their reed one in 1878). Also the rests would have been long on an early one, like these, becoming shorter on later models.
 
But I abandoned that hypothesis as soon as I learned that the serial number was rubber-stamped...
 

Stephen, Don and David,
 
Many thanks for your further comments.
 
I have a Louis Lachenal 20b Anglo #1950 and can confirm that it has stamped, rather than inked serial numbers. It also has wire staple pivots, a softwood action board and lettered buttons. As you concluded, this Baffling Anglo (BA) doesn't look like a Lachenal. 
Just to confuse things, the BA pivot post looks like Fig 16 in Wheatstone's 1844 patent (interestingly refered to as a Bridge or Support; Keys are labelled as a Touch or Stop) which subsequently appeared on Lachenals.
 
I associate Nickolds with 'cut out' reed clamps.......again, this doesn't seem to add up.
 
If only they could talk as well as sing!!
 
Cheers,
Neil
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
.


Edited by nkgibbs, 13 April 2017 - 02:10 AM.





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