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Tuning Of Old Lachenal English Concertina

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#19 Geoff Wooff

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 06:56 AM

The cent values I quote in my chart are form this chart, found on https://en.wikipedia...-comma_meantone  ...
I don't believe there are mistakes in rev 1 of my chart (if all my values are adjusted by +10, they are all within 1 cent of your values)
As I said before, this is all relative and depends upon which note the tuner decides to use as a reference point, I started with C because that had been given the cent value of zero in the chart on the above site (tried to paste it in here, but it looses it's table format)



Yes it looks now.

#20 banjojohn

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 08:06 AM

I will do another full tuning measure on 32159, following the method I have outlined in the notes on 'mean tone tuning chart rev 1.pdf'. I will report the results back to this posting thread in due course....  Really interested in this now and eager to find out how close to this temperament 32159 really is after all these years...


Edited by banjojohn, 17 November 2015 - 08:13 AM.


#21 Don Taylor

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 09:48 AM

Geoff

 

Next time you are waiting for glue to dry,  would you be so kind as to publish your ET deviations for 1/5 comma meantone.

 

Thanks,  Don


Edited by Don Taylor, 17 November 2015 - 09:49 AM.


#22 DaveM

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 10:37 AM

This is what I get:

 

ab   9.4
eb   7.0
bb   4.7
f      2.3

c     0.0
g   -2.3
d   -4.7
a   -7.0

e   -9.4
b  -11.7
f# -14.1
c# -16.4
g# -18.8

 

hopefully, it's the same as Geoff's (otherwise I'm misunderstanding 1/5 meantone)


Edited by DaveM, 17 November 2015 - 10:40 AM.


#23 Geoff Wooff

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 10:42 AM

No problem Don... the next gluing stage is drying and my head is twisted because I am making a left handed instrument which does not happen very often, and these glued parts are 'back to front' so getting everything aligned really got the grey matter stiring.

So here are the figures for 1/5th Comma Meantone (also available in the March 2015 issue of Concertina World) :

C+6, C#-8, D+2, D#-12 , Eb+12 ,E-2, F+8, F#-6, G+4, G#-10, Ab+14, A'0', Bb+10, B-4.

This is also called Homogenous Meantone.

PS: by making 'A' the Zero note the spread of pitches is about evenly spaced either side of Equal Temperament... my reasoning being to have a Meantone tuned instrument that plays reasonably well with other instruments in ET.

PPS: more than you might ever wish to know about Tunings and Temperaments can be found at the Dolmetsch website

www.dolmetsch.com

Edited by Geoff Wooff, 17 November 2015 - 10:55 AM.


#24 Don Taylor

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 01:54 PM

Geoff:

 

Thanks very much. 

 

I recently bought a beater 'sight unseen' to learn to how to fettle and I like the logic of your choice of 1/5 comma meantone.  It is going to need tuning anyway so I am tempted by 1/5 comma meantone.

 

Don.



#25 Geoff Wooff

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 04:30 PM

Geoff:
 
Thanks very much. 
 
I recently bought a beater 'sight unseen' to learn to how to fettle and I like the logic of your choice of 1/5 comma meantone.  It is going to need tuning anyway so I am tempted by 1/5 comma meantone.
 
Don.




I feel that for single note melody line playing on the English , as quite a lot of people do, the Equal Temperament is fine but I like to use chords and melody togther and thus I want the simple chords to sound sweeter. For the song accompanist the Meantones are a good choice too.

Good luck with your Beater Don!

#26 Chris Ghent

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 08:29 PM

Geoff,

thanks for those clear figures.

In both 1/4 and 1/5 the discrepancy between G#/Af and C#/Df is large. If you only had one button (ie. anglo) for these notes how would you rationalise a decision where to pitch the note? I can imagine if it was placed in ET it would be fine as a single note but chord including those notes would be compromised, especially if other notes in the chord had been altered in the other direction.

As you know I am an Irish music orientated player, D,G and associated modes, occasional C and A, very rarely F. I could forget F and tune the G# and the C# to meantone, what do you see as issues in this approach?

Chris


Edited by Chris Ghent, 17 November 2015 - 09:06 PM.


#27 Don Taylor

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Posted 17 November 2015 - 08:50 PM

So here are the figures for 1/5th Comma Meantone (also available in the March 2015 issue of Concertina World) :

C+6, C#-8, D+2, D#-12 , Eb+12 ,E-2, F+8, F#-6, G+4, G#-10, Ab+14, A'0', Bb+10, B-4.

This is also called Homogenous Meantone.

PS: by making 'A' the Zero note the spread of pitches is about evenly spaced either side of Equal Temperament... my reasoning being to have a Meantone tuned instrument that plays reasonably well with other instruments in ET.
 

 

Making 'A' the zero note:  I am guessing that some keys work better than others? 

 

If so, what would they be and which ones are problematic?



#28 cboody

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 12:31 AM

 

So here are the figures for 1/5th Comma Meantone (also available in the March 2015 issue of Concertina World) :

C+6, C#-8, D+2, D#-12 , Eb+12 ,E-2, F+8, F#-6, G+4, G#-10, Ab+14, A'0', Bb+10, B-4.

This is also called Homogenous Meantone.

PS: by making 'A' the Zero note the spread of pitches is about evenly spaced either side of Equal Temperament... my reasoning being to have a Meantone tuned instrument that plays reasonably well with other instruments in ET.
 

 

Making 'A' the zero note:  I am guessing that some keys work better than others? 

 

If so, what would they be and which ones are problematic?

 

Take a close look.  The notes with the least deviations from 0 are the keys that will sound best with ET instruments.  So, D (+2) G(+4) E(-2) B(-4) etc.  That is to say, the fundamental of the key in those keys is closest to ET tuning.  Any key should be essentially in tune with itself.  I have a 1/5 meantone instrument I got from Geoff, and it is true that usually there is no issue playing with ET instruments.  I have sometimes heard a bit of problem playing in unison with a well tuned Hammered Dulcimer, but that seems to be mostly a matter of the acoustical environment.



#29 Geoff Wooff

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 02:26 AM

Geoff,

thanks for those clear figures.

In both 1/4 and 1/5 the discrepancy between G#/Af and C#/Df is large. If you only had one button (ie. anglo) for these notes how would you rationalise a decision where to pitch the note? I can imagine if it was placed in ET it would be fine as a single note but chord including those notes would be compromised, especially if other notes in the chord had been altered in the other direction.

As you know I am an Irish music orientated player, D,G and associated modes, occasional C and A, very rarely F. I could forget F and tune the G# and the C# to meantone, what do you see as issues in this approach?

Chris




Chris,
do you not mean D#/Eb where you've written C#/Df ? If this is the case then the choices are made by the Keys one plays in.If I am reading music and the score is written in a Flat key then I use the Ab's and the Eb's and vice versa... So your first use of a G# would be in a chord of E maj. or if you are playing in A maj. You would not normally need an Ab for playing in the key of F unless you were into Jazz or Bach etc.

Likewise if you might play in the key of E maj then you would need D# as your leading note ( sharp seventh) and not Eb....

If you came across an Irish session in Eb I assume you'd choose to use a Db/Ab ( or would you call it a C#/G#) Anglo and not try to play a C/G box up one semitone.
I'm sure Adrian Brown will have some thoughts on this too.

Edited by Geoff Wooff, 18 November 2015 - 02:28 AM.


#30 Geoff Wooff

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 02:37 AM

So here are the figures for 1/5th Comma Meantone (also available in the March 2015 issue of Concertina World) :

C+6, C#-8, D+2, D#-12 , Eb+12 ,E-2, F+8, F#-6, G+4, G#-10, Ab+14, A'0', Bb+10, B-4.

This is also called Homogenous Meantone.

PS: by making 'A' the Zero note the spread of pitches is about evenly spaced either side of Equal Temperament... my reasoning being to have a Meantone tuned instrument that plays reasonably well with other instruments in ET.




 
Making 'A' the zero note:  I am guessing that some keys work better than others? 
 
If so, what would they be and which ones are problematic?



Making the A zero only spaces the offsets more evenly in relation to Equal Temperament. If one used C as zero then the whole keyboard would be 6 cents flatter but the available 'good' keys , or the relationships of the notes will stay the same.

I currently play happily in Eb,Bb,F,C,G,D,A and E.... B and Ab are possible but perhaps the odd chord starts to get sour...

For playing with other people tuned to ET I've had no problems in the key range Bb through A.

Of course this relates to the EC keyboard and using the alternative G#/Ab's, D#/Eb's. If one had a larger Hayden Keyboard with the D#'s and G#'s on the right of the patern and the Eb's and Ab's on the left... I would tune those notes accordingly (pun intended).

Edited by Geoff Wooff, 18 November 2015 - 02:43 AM.


#31 Chris Ghent

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 06:36 AM

Geoff,

Sorry, I wrote more than I needed then edited it clumsily and in haste. Nevertheless you seem to have found my intent. I take your general point, work out what is more useful. From a single note point of view in my case it would be G# over Af (for A), Bf over A# (for F), D# over Ef (can't imagine a use for Ef). But it is chords that improve in meantone and as it happens I can't think of anywhere I use a G# in a chord so I wonder if I should leave that note in ET to improve compatability with session players. Same is true of D#.

Chris,do you not mean D#/Eb where you've written C#/Df ? If this is the case then the choices are made by the Keys one plays in.If I am reading music and the score is written in a Flat key then I use the Ab's and the Eb's and vice versa... So your first use of a G# would be in a chord of E maj. or if you are playing in A maj. You would not normally need an Ab for playing in the key of F unless you were into Jazz or Bach etc.Likewise if you might play in the key of E maj then you would need D# as your leading note ( sharp seventh) and not Eb....If you came across an Irish session in Eb I assume you'd choose to use a Db/Ab ( or would you call it a C#/G#) Anglo and not try to play a C/G box up one semitone.I'm sure Adrian Brown will have some thoughts on this too.



#32 Geoff Wooff

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Posted 18 November 2015 - 07:13 AM

Geoff,

Sorry, I wrote more than I needed then edited it clumsily and in haste. Nevertheless you seem to have found my intent. I take your general point, work out what is more useful. From a single note point of view in my case it would be G# over Af (for A), Bf over A# (for F), D# over Ef (can't imagine a use for Ef). But it is chords that improve in meantone and as it happens I can't think of anywhere I use a G# in a chord so I wonder if I should leave that note in ET to improve compatability with session players. Same is true of D#.



OK, let us look at very basic accompaniment ( and yes the glue is now dry so I will have to be brief) ; for any key a simple accompaniment can be made by using the next key sharper and the next key flatter ( in a key signature sense)... so for a tune in C you could harmonise using a C chord,an F chord and a G chord . Usually the sharper key would be used as a seventh. This is just for a mostly Major key melody. One might also use D minor,D7, A minor and A7. So this is where the problems can arrive very quickly when using those keys that are not in the middle area of one's meantone arrangement, because needing to use accompaniment keys two or three keys further away from that central area can drop one into the Wolf-note's lair!

So, where might you use a G# ? When playing in A one of the most used accompaniment chords would be E7 , which uses the notes E,G#,B and D..... Likewise when playing in Bb the use of an Eb chord in the accompaniment occurs.

Just a simple explaination of why one would need both G#/Ab and Eb/D# if the instrument is to be used in more than just a very few keys.

PS: one does not need full chords as an accompaniment of course, just a note or two is usually sufficient when playing the melody as well..... the same, I guess, if you are singing to the concertina .

Edited by Geoff Wooff, 19 November 2015 - 02:00 AM.


#33 banjojohn

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Posted 19 November 2015 - 05:38 AM

I will do another full tuning measure on 32159, following the method I have outlined in the notes on 'mean tone tuning chart rev 1.pdf'. I will report the results back to this posting thread in due course....  Really interested in this now and eager to find out how close to this temperament 32159 really is after all these years...

 

Ok, last night I had a fiddle about with the calibration setting on my Korg, I had a hunch that the A4 on this instrument was in pretty good shape as it sounded very good on both reeds and was pitched equally. Assuming that the instrument was in quarter comma mean tone, I decided to adjust tuner calibration until this A4 was measuring 10 cents flat (from tuning chart). This resulted in a calibration setting of A = 450Hz.  This is obviously close to Old Philharmonic pitch of A = 452 (S/N 32159 dates from about 1890 I believe).  Can I assume that the flatness in down to age and or the fact that the reed tongues have not been cleaned yet and therefore could have deposits on them which are slowing them down slightly? 

 

Having established the tuner setting, I then proceeded to measure every reed and recorded the results.  What I did next was to average the values recorded on each pair and compile these figures onto my 1/4 comma mean tone chart, I then averaged these deviations across all octaves for each note. The result strongly suggests that 32159 is in 1/4 CMT, with average deviations being within +/- 5 cents for all notes!  Please see attached chart:

 

Attached File  Mean Tone Tuning Result 32159.pdf   25.75KB   80 downloads



#34 Geoff Wooff

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Posted 19 November 2015 - 07:21 AM

Yes dirt or sticky deposits ( sweat,smoke,soot etc) can adhear to the reeds making them heavier and thus lower in pitch. It is possible that carefull cleaning of the reeds plus rejuvination or replacement of the valves might bring most of the reeds back to their original pitches and no ,or very little, further intervention will be needed.

Looks like you have found what you've been looking for.

#35 banjojohn

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Posted 19 November 2015 - 07:45 AM

Geoff,  Thanks for your reply, yes I shall definitely look into reed cleaning next... I have David Elliot's repair manual to guide me in this process, but does anyone out there have any other tips or good tried and tested methods of cleaning, would for instance methylated spirits and a soft artists brush be an OK?



#36 Theo

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Posted 19 November 2015 - 09:09 AM

Best advice on reed cleaning is - don't! Unless you can see obvious build up of something that should not be there.





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