Jump to content


Photo

Having A Latin American Accordion Tech Make Me A Duet Concertina?

hybrid latin america melodeon bandoneon

  • Please log in to reply
28 replies to this topic

#1 MatthewVanitas

MatthewVanitas

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 544 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Montreal, Quebec

Posted 17 November 2014 - 01:29 PM

Still working down here in Colombia, though contracts slower to become profitable than I'd like, so haven't yet jumped on my clever ideas to take advantage of low-low labor costs down here to get some cool stuff done.

 

One idea I have is to find a local accordion technician, and get him to make me a basic hybrid concertina. For ease of an accordionist building it, simplicity of design, and also because I like it, my current vision is to have him build me a Wheatstone Duett, but hybrid and in Hayden layout:

2ewfv34.jpg

 

It's smaller than the usual (though will have to scale-up size to fit hybrid reeds), minimal angles and curves, looks to be a pretty simple action to adapt to using stock accordion levers/springs, etc. Plus I've always loved the look of the little things, and I'm fine having a more limited instrument if it means I can have less-expensive and durable small instrument for travel.

 

Left-Action-Board-Labels-Visible-2.jpg

 

 

 

Does this sound like a broadly-reasonable idea? My impression is that most accordion techs in Colombia work on Hohners, don't know how common building from scratch is. But if I can find a guy who's repaired/fabricated actions and boards, knows reed settup of course, and has decent woodworking skills, might this be feasible? I don't know if such a tech makes his own bellows, but if somehow he doesn't, perhaps I can get the smallest rectangular off-the-shelf bellows we can source and build around those dimensions.

 

Any of you concertina builders/repairers/enthusiasts have any input on the feasibility of this? If doable, what would I have to explain to an accordion tech about (hybrid) concertinas that might not otherwise be intuitive to him?



#2 JimLucas

JimLucas

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10128 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denmark

Posted 17 November 2014 - 04:01 PM

Any of you concertina builders/repairers/enthusiasts have any input on the feasibility of this? If doable, what would I have to explain to an accordion tech about (hybrid) concertinas that might not otherwise be intuitive to him?


Of course, the ones who really should answer this are folks who have worked on both small accordions/melodeons and concertinas... preferably someone who has worked on hybrids (including Stagis) and not just our "vintage" types. I'd recommend asking also over on melodeon.net, though I suspect that anyone with such crossover skills wouldn't be a member there and not here.

 

Oh yeah, and if you do find somebody down there, don't neglect to show him the insides of your Crane.  :)



#3 MatthewVanitas

MatthewVanitas

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 544 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Montreal, Quebec

Posted 18 November 2014 - 10:11 PM

One thing I'm debating, based on advice from another member, is getting a cheap big ol' clunky celluloid 20b Anglo. Then have the tech slice off the end-face and put on a solid piece of material, and then drill it for 46, 52, or 65 Hayden-layout buttons, which have levers going to pads just wherever they fit on the new plywood soundboard. Then just drop in magnets that interface with the pads do the standard reedless MIDI conversion. That way I can have a working frame and bellows for $50, taking at least some of the expense out of the equation. Though at some point I might need to ask a tech how much it really would cost to make basic square ends and bellows. If it's just $150 or something to get a nicer handmade wooden carcass, I can pony up the extra $100 to not be basing on a cheap Chinese body.



#4 Bill N

Bill N

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 509 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Hamilton, Canada

Posted 18 November 2014 - 10:47 PM

Mathew, if you want it I have an immaculate 20 button Castiglione double reeded (D/A) box that you are welcome to.  I bought it from Elderly Instruments (with the intention of using it for traditional Newfoundland music)

on the assurance that it only needed minor tuning, but the reeds were totally corroded, so no use to me. Yours for the cost of postage.  



#5 Graham Collicutt

Graham Collicutt

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 165 posts
  • Location:N. Cotswolds, UK

Posted 25 November 2014 - 08:41 AM

A link to topic on melodeon.net about 2 new makers of Bandoneons in S America.
 


#6 Don Taylor

Don Taylor

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1103 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ontario, Canada

Posted 25 November 2014 - 08:33 PM

This eBay listing has some interesting photographs of the interior of a Bandoneon, scroll down and click on a thumbnail image to enlarge it. 

 

http://www.ebay.ca/i...=item566cf8d7af

 

 



#7 Noel Ways

Noel Ways

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 69 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Massachusetts, USA

Posted 14 January 2015 - 07:52 PM

Matt, I have been giving your questions some thought and was wondering if you have considered contacting a concertina maker (they all make Anglos), and ask for a rearrangement of the reeds for an anglo to look like the image below.  I believe that most concertina makers are fine with changing notes/reeds.  I also note that Button Box has a Stagi with a very minor curvature and the buttons seem parallel to the hand rest.  I bet they might be able to do this for you, and if they aren't, I bet you could do it yourself.  I have been giving some serious thought about trying it, as I would like a very small concertina that would fit into my backpack when I go hiking, which I do frequently.  Also, this arraignment would allow for the playing in at least four keys

 

http://www.noelways.com/conc_01.jpg

 

If you wanted an even smaller concertina, a 20 key anglo, could probably work as well, but it might have some limitations.

 

Below is the link to view the Stagi concertinas.  Note keys are "parallel" to hand rest:

 

http://www.buttonbox...tock.html#anglo


Edited by Noel Ways, 14 January 2015 - 08:01 PM.


#8 Don Taylor

Don Taylor

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1103 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ontario, Canada

Posted 14 January 2015 - 09:28 PM

http://www.noelways.com/conc_01.jpg

 
Works OK for the RHS, but the button stagger on the LHS of an Anglo might feel a bit strange to a Hayden player, it would be something like this:

       Bb C  D  E  F#     Bb C  D  E  F#
      F  G  A  B  C#        F  G  A  B  C#
    C  D  E  F# G#           C  D  E  F# G#

When you played a fifth on the LHS you would get a fourth.



#9 rlgph

rlgph

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 109 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Western North Carolina

Posted 14 January 2015 - 09:47 PM

The button stagger would work for a mirrored configuration on the left side, however.

#10 Noel Ways

Noel Ways

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 69 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Massachusetts, USA

Posted 14 January 2015 - 09:48 PM

Hmmm, good point!  OK, how about this arraignment:

http://www.noelways.com/conc_03.jpg

One could still play in several keys, and keep
the all important uniformity of the Hayden Key Layout in tack.

 

I think I could work with this, in a pinch; and Matt is in a

pinch at the moment...


Edited by Noel Ways, 14 January 2015 - 09:59 PM.


#11 JimLucas

JimLucas

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10128 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denmark

Posted 15 January 2015 - 03:41 AM

http://www.noelways.com/conc_01.jpg

 
Works OK for the RHS, but the button stagger on the LHS of an Anglo might feel a bit strange to a Hayden player, it would be something like this:
       Bb C  D  E  F#     Bb C  D  E  F#
      F  G  A  B  C#        F  G  A  B  C#
    C  D  E  F# G#           C  D  E  F# G#
When you played a fifth on the LHS you would get a fourth.

 

 

The button stagger would work for a mirrored configuration on the left side, however.

 

Hmmm, good point!  OK, how about this arraignment:

http://www.noelways.com/conc_03.jpg


Noel, I'm pretty sure that rlgph meant mirroring in the horizontal direction, not the vertical.  I.e., like this:

       F# E  D  C  Bb     Bb C  D  E  F#
      C# B  A  G  F        F  G  A  B  C#
     G# F# E  D  C          C  D  E  F# G#


#12 Wolf Molkentin

Wolf Molkentin

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2566 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Baltic coast, Schleswig-Holstein

Posted 15 January 2015 - 03:57 AM

Hmmm, good point!  OK, how about this arraignment:

http://www.noelways.com/conc_03.jpg


Noel, I'm pretty sure that rlgph meant mirroring in the horizontal direction, not the vertical.  I.e., like this:
       F# E  D  C  Bb     Bb C  D  E  F#
      C# B  A  G  F        F  G  A  B  C#
     G# F# E  D  C          C  D  E  F# G#

 
Not sure if Noel hadn't already got that regarding the post from rlgph - but apart from that, what about his last suggestion, wouldn't that make sense for a player who doesn't want to have the sort of "mirroring" as in your layout scheme?



#13 JimLucas

JimLucas

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10128 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denmark

Posted 15 January 2015 - 04:29 AM

Hmmm, good point!  OK, how about this arraignment:

http://www.noelways.com/conc_03.jpg


Noel, I'm pretty sure that rlgph meant mirroring in the horizontal direction, not the vertical.  I.e., like this:
       F# E  D  C  Bb     Bb C  D  E  F#
      C# B  A  G  F        F  G  A  B  C#
     G# F# E  D  C          C  D  E  F# G#

 
Not sure if Noel hadn't already got that regarding the post from rlgph - but apart from that, what about his last suggestion, wouldn't that make sense for a player who doesn't want to have the sort of "mirroring" as in your layout scheme?

 

My response assumed that Noel was replying to the immediately preceding post, the one by rlgph.  I guess the layout in his JPG image makes more sense as a reply to Don's observation.  (This is why I always use quoting to identify the post(s) I'm responding to.)  It does overcome that directional offset problem, retaining the Hayden geometry in standard orientation, though at the expense of having the layouts of the two hands no longer match button-by-button (with an octave difference).

 

What misled(?) me was that Noel's layout coincidentally(?) shows a top-to-bottom reflection of the right-hand rows in the left hand.  rlgph, on the other hand (pun acknowledged) has pointed out elsewhere that the concept he's most comfortable with is having the left hand layout mirror the right hand in a right-to-left fashion, which would be the layout I submitted.



#14 Don Taylor

Don Taylor

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1103 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Ontario, Canada

Posted 15 January 2015 - 10:11 AM

The button stagger would work for a mirrored configuration on the left side, however.


If this is true then the button stagger on the LHS on your proposed mirrored Peacock will be wrong unless Wim is going to completely redesign the LHS for you.

I assume that he is just going to swap the reeds around on the sound board. If that is the case then won't the button stagger be in the wrong direction on the LHS?

#15 rlgph

rlgph

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 109 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Western North Carolina

Posted 15 January 2015 - 01:46 PM

 

The button stagger would work for a mirrored configuration on the left side, however.


If this is true then the button stagger on the LHS on your proposed mirrored Peacock will be wrong unless Wim is going to completely redesign the LHS for you.

I assume that he is just going to swap the reeds around on the sound board. If that is the case then won't the button stagger be in the wrong direction on the LHS?

 

I used the word "mirrored" in my initial query about changing the left side.  His response said that the Peacock can be ordered with "ascending" or "descending" keyboards on either side.  To be sure we were talking about the same thing, before i sent in my order i sent the following image of what i expected on the left side:

PeacockLeft.jpg

apologizing for the backward lettering.  The answer from Karen Wakker was that my "drawing is correct" for a left side descending keyboard.  I suppose it's possible that she just looked at the bottom row to identify descending, without noticing the differences in the top two rows.  I guess i'll see.


Edited by rlgph, 15 January 2015 - 01:48 PM.


#16 Noel Ways

Noel Ways

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 69 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Massachusetts, USA

Posted 15 January 2015 - 02:25 PM

With some trepidation, here is another image which I think far better shows what I am thinking about.

 

 

 

ANG_HAY_04.jpg

 

 

I note that I can also play many tunes with just the first two rows !!  Therefore, a 20 key Anglo, could certainly be used.

 

I confess, I have never touched an Anglo concertina in my life, but I think, I hope, that this image correctly shows the way the Anglo keys are and how I think reed arrangement can be adjusted to make a very inexpensive, do-it-yourself, Hayden type concertina for travel / compact purposes; using, perhaps, a Stagi or other inexpensive Anglo concertina and getting a hold of some accordion reeds.

 

Hope this helps somebody somewhere ...  Matt ??


Edited by Noel Ways, 15 January 2015 - 03:32 PM.


#17 JimLucas

JimLucas

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10128 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denmark

Posted 15 January 2015 - 03:36 PM

The button stagger would work for a mirrored configuration on the left side, however.


If this is true then the button stagger on the LHS on your proposed mirrored Peacock will be wrong unless Wim is going to completely redesign the LHS for you.

I assume that he is just going to swap the reeds around on the sound board. If that is the case then won't the button stagger be in the wrong direction on the LHS?

 
Shouldn't Wim be able to program his machines to simply make a mirror image of the usual left-hand end, action layout, and reed pan?  I think the only part of the design that might be more complex to deal with is the positioning of the hand bar.



#18 Noel Ways

Noel Ways

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 69 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Massachusetts, USA

Posted 15 January 2015 - 03:52 PM

http://www.noelways.com/ANG_HAY_04.jpg

 

Perhaps.  But if Wim were to do this, it would be expensive, and in this case one should just buy a Peacock.  I wonder if Wim would even consider it !?!?

 

The goal here is a do-it-your-self inexpensive "hayden key layout" on some cheepo Anglo, that one would not mind backpacking with or playing in the rain !!   :wacko:   Or don't mind taking to such places as Bogotá, Colombia !!,

 

Remember the context of this forum.  Matt Vanitas, who started this forum, already has an excellent hybrid Hayden Concertina, but he does not want to take is much beloved Baumount to such places as Bogotá, Colombia; so his goal here is to acquire a very inexpensive hayden concertina that he is comfortable having in such places.  My interest here is that I like to hike in the forest and would like to have a inexpensive concertina to carry in my backpack.  I have a Peacock, and I do not want to cart my much beloved Peacock where it might start to rain !!

 

Anyone out there willing to try it ??  I'm giving it some serious thought ....


Edited by Noel Ways, 15 January 2015 - 04:29 PM.






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: hybrid, latin america, melodeon, bandoneon

0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users