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Theme Of The Month, August 2014: Tunes In '3'


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#19 Jim Besser

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 03:11 PM

 

General Booth is a very cool tune. I really like 3/2 hornpipes and have a very hard time playing them.


Just wondering... do you start off trying to include chording, or do you play them -- at least at first -- as melody only?

My own feeling is that the particular attraction of these tunes is in the variation of stresses within and among measures, and that common chording patterns tend to usurp this with their own, more "ordinary" emphases. And on a single concertina, in particular, it can be impossible to separate the two, the way one might with one instrument playing melody and another playing a more subdued backup.

 

 

Chording from the outset. I understand what you're saying and it makes, sense, but I've always learned melody and accompaniment together.  GUess that's why I've always been a bad Irish player!


Edited by Jim Besser, 07 August 2014 - 03:30 PM.


#20 bellowbelle

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 06:05 PM

Well, lucky me, the piece I put at Soundcloud this morning just happens to be 'in 3!'  I didn't know what the Theme Of The Month for August was until after.  

 

It's something I wrote a long time ago and you may have already heard it, but this is a new recording, and with the Geordie baritone English (which, for the record, has the same basic keyboard fingering, layout, as the treble, but a deeper tone).  

 

 

The Crows Know Me

 

I have the dots for it somewhere, but I can't remember if I put it in 3/4 or 6/8 but that's about the same thing. 

 

It's just a short little tune, really.  I could probably add a verse or two, sometime.  Maybe...



#21 bellowbelle

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Posted 07 August 2014 - 06:41 PM

 

General Booth is a very cool tune. I really like 3/2 hornpipes and have a very hard time playing them.


Just wondering... do you start off trying to include chording, or do you play them -- at least at first -- as melody only?

My own feeling is that the particular attraction of these tunes is in the variation of stresses within and among measures, and that common chording patterns tend to usurp this with their own, more "ordinary" emphases. And on a single concertina, in particular, it can be impossible to separate the two, the way one might with one instrument playing melody and another playing a more subdued backup.

 

 

 

I 'agree,' if that's the word, with this idea about melody vs. chords, or melody with chords.   Thing is... I do really love chords, too, and all those pretty ones like the ninths and elevenths and whatever...  but I think they need to fall into place as a complement to the melody, on the concertina.  At least, for me.  I mean, unless the piece was written to show off something about chords, I guess.   

 

Jim, I like all your 'Theme' stuff but some of it I have to play later when my internet connection is stronger...  the last two don't want to play right now on my Chromebook.

 

Also...   sometimes, since I don't have much of an education re all the different kinds of (names for) tunes -- it can be a little hard to immediately grab, from a recording, how it would be best counted.  So, feel free to give a little note about a count-out, if you want... like, would I count '1-2-3, 1-2-3,' and does the first note start on a 1, etc..  If you just say '3/4 time,' that's easy, but when you say 'Polska,' etc., I'm not sure exactly what that means, re the timing.



#22 Randy Stein

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 06:09 AM

 

 

General Booth is a very cool tune. I really like 3/2 hornpipes and have a very hard time playing them.


Just wondering... do you start off trying to include chording, or do you play them -- at least at first -- as melody only?

My own feeling is that the particular attraction of these tunes is in the variation of stresses within and among measures, and that common chording patterns tend to usurp this with their own, more "ordinary" emphases. And on a single concertina, in particular, it can be impossible to separate the two, the way one might with one instrument playing melody and another playing a more subdued backup.

 

 

 

I 'agree,' if that's the word, with this idea about melody vs. chords, or melody with chords.   Thing is... I do really love chords, too, and all those pretty ones like the ninths and elevenths and whatever...  but I think they need to fall into place as a complement to the melody, on the concertina.  At least, for me.  I mean, unless the piece was written to show off something about chords, I guess.   

 

Jim, I like all your 'Theme' stuff but some of it I have to play later when my internet connection is stronger...  the last two don't want to play right now on my Chromebook.

 

Also...   sometimes, since I don't have much of an education re all the different kinds of (names for) tunes -- it can be a little hard to immediately grab, from a recording, how it would be best counted.  So, feel free to give a little note about a count-out, if you want... like, would I count '1-2-3, 1-2-3,' and does the first note start on a 1, etc..  If you just say '3/4 time,' that's easy, but when you say 'Polska,' etc., I'm not sure exactly what that means, re the timing.

 

I usually am very hesitant  to get involved in these kind of discussion but here goes:

Not sure I get the drift of your question or what the discussion about chording and melody is alluding to. Melody + chords (accompaniment) = Song. Not chording allows for a melody line to be played unaccompanied and one can offer self accompaniment or have it supplied by another instrument. In the end it is all personal  preference and one's own opinion (or bias) that determines how they play, what they play, what choices are made for arrangements, and what you like. 

Time signatures merely specify how many beats are in each bar and which note value constitutes one beat. Specific styles of music and dance are related i.e. a waltz is in 3/4 time. a quarter note gets one beat and there are 3 notes to a measure. 

rss


Edited by Randy Stein, 08 August 2014 - 06:11 AM.


#23 JimLucas

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 11:00 AM

General Booth is a very cool tune. I really like 3/2 hornpipes and have a very hard time playing them.


Just wondering... do you start off trying to include chording, or do you play them -- at least at first -- as melody only?

My own feeling is that the particular attraction of these tunes is in the variation of stresses within and among measures, and that common chording patterns tend to usurp this with their own, more "ordinary" emphases. And on a single concertina, in particular, it can be impossible to separate the two, the way one might with one instrument playing melody and another playing a more subdued backup.

 

 
Chording from the outset. I understand what you're saying and it makes, sense, but I've always learned melody and accompaniment together.  GUess that's why I've always been a bad Irish player!

About the Irish... could be.

And if it "makes sense", why not give it a try?

Take several tunes -- both some you're happy with how you now play them and some that you've tried but aren't happy with the result -- and play them as melody only until you can do so "automatically".  Then work on getting the "feel" -- the subtle details of stress and timing -- that attracted you to the tunes in the first place. ( If necessary, listen closely, and analyze the details.)

 

By including chords from the beginning, you risk that your chord timing, structure, and emphasis are based on established habits that aren't really compatible with the "feel" of a "new" kind of tune.  As an example, let me criticize (my intent is constructive) your recording of Hambo from Brooklyn. I could very well dance a hambo to that, but my first reaction -- if not for your description, and the name -- would have been to consider it a waltz.  An emphasized down beat (first beat of the measure) with weak 2nd and 3rd beats is not typical of hambos or other polskas. (Reminder: the hambo is a particular variant of the polska.) In polskas, the second or third beat may even get more emphasis than the first.

 

Similarly, there are definite differences in emphasis and feeling between a jig played for contra dancing and the same tune played for an Irish step dance or set.  I think I've mentioned (though I don't remember whether here or in a private email) the Irishman who, on hearing Nightingale in concert, said, "They're the best band I've ever heard play Irish music backward."  :D  If you try to overlay an "Irish" melody on a left-hand chording style that you've developed for contra dancing (or, "heaven forbid", Morris! ;)), then you shouldn't be surprised if it "doesn't sound 'Irish' ".

 

You (or others) may think, "It's easy for him to say," since I rarely do the chords-against-melody thing myself.  But one reason for that is that I'm not good at it, and if I don't feel that my chording attempts fit, I leave them out.  I believe that until you can get the feel you want from the melody alone, it's futile to try to develop (or "select") a fitting chording style to give that desired feel.

 

So I repeat:  Melody only... give it a try.  Once you're satisfied with what you can do with that, I bet it will have an effect on how you add chords... an effect that will please you.  :)



#24 JimLucas

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 12:05 PM

My own feeling is that the particular attraction of these tunes is in the variation of stresses within and among measures, and that common chording patterns tend to usurp this with their own, more "ordinary" emphases. And on a single concertina, in particular, it can be impossible to separate the two, the way one might with one instrument playing melody and another playing a more subdued backup.

 
I 'agree,' if that's the word, with this idea about melody vs. chords, or melody with chords.   Thing is... I do really love chords, too, and all those pretty ones like the ninths and elevenths and whatever...  but I think they need to fall into place as a complement to the melody, on the concertina.  At least, for me.  I mean, unless the piece was written to show off something about chords, I guess.

Well, my point is not meant to be about whether to use chords, but how to use them. And in particular with tunes that have complex or "unusual" rhythm, if they're not being used in a way that emphasizes and enhances those rhythms -- if they obscure or distract from those rhythms, -- then they're better left out.
 

Jim, I like all your 'Theme' stuff but some of it I have to play later when my internet connection is stronger...  the last two don't want to play right now on my Chromebook.


I don't know that I can help with that. They're all simple MP3 files, and all in the same directory/folder on the same server. There shouldn't be any difference in how your browser handles them.
 

Also...   sometimes, since I don't have much of an education re all the different kinds of (names for) tunes -- it can be a little hard to immediately grab, from a recording, how it would be best counted.  So, feel free to give a little note about a count-out, if you want... like, would I count '1-2-3, 1-2-3,' and does the first note start on a 1, etc..  If you just say '3/4 time,' that's easy, but when you say 'Polska,' etc., I'm not sure exactly what that means, re the timing.


Sorry about not further explaining the polska, but since it's been a topic of discussion lately -- even to having it's own thread, -- I thought any questions would already have been asked and answered. The polska is considered to be the Swedish national (folk) dance.  The tunes and dance have a repeating 3-"beat" stress pattern that is normally notated as 3/4.  Waltzes are also normally written in 3/4, but the details of the stress pattern are different.

 

You ask about 1-2-3, but it's not that simple, since the stresses are rarely all equal.  I.e., 1-2-3 is more common for a waltz, while 1-2-3, 1-2-3 may be more appropriate for polskas.  And even that is misleading, since boldface only allows me to indicate two levels/intensities of stress, while a tune in 3/4 may well have three different values in a single measure.

 

Does it always start on "1"?  Musically, no, though in a dance the first step will (almost?) always be on "1".  But some tunes (not all) may have one or more "pickup" notes, which act as preparation for the first "downbeat"="1".

 

Maybe I should say a bit more about the concept of "in 3", but I think that should be a separate post, so for now I'll stop here.



#25 Daria

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 02:33 PM

Here is Tombigbee's Waltz.  GD Morse Anglo

Working on sustaining R hand and lightening up on L.

 

Messed up in middle, but don't have time to redo right now.

 

 

https://soundcloud.c...ee-waltz-take-2

 

 

e


Edited by Daria, 14 October 2014 - 09:37 PM.


#26 JimLucas

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 03:05 PM

Here is Tombigbee's Waltz.  GD Morse Anglo

Working on sustaining R hand and lightening up on L.

 

Another nice one.

Looking forward to your "second take".  :)



#27 Wolf Molkentin

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 03:19 PM

Here's my (first?) one:

 

Lochanside

 

a Scottish "Retreat march" (albeit apparently written in 6/8 by some...)

 

 (I hope) as learned from the amiable and much missed Simon "The Pie Man" Thoumire...

 

('twas great, your teaching, sharing music and chatting with you back in 2013 mate! would be nice to meet you again some time!)


Edited by blue eyed sailor, 08 August 2014 - 06:30 PM.


#28 chas

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 05:24 PM

Here's my (first?) one:

 

Lochanside

 

a Scottish "Retreat march" (albeit apparently written in 6/8 by some...)

 

 (I hope) as learned from the amiable and much missed Simon "The Pie Man" Thoumire...

That's lovely.  Nice harmonies and a good pulse maintained. 

"Much missed"??  Have I missed something?  What happened to Simon?



#29 Wolf Molkentin

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Posted 08 August 2014 - 06:26 PM

Hi Chas - oh no, Simon is perfectly well as to my knowledge, I'd just been recalling those days back in 2013... :)

(sorry for using so obviously unfitting words for that...)

 

And as to the music, I'm very glad you like my take, the feedback is much appreciated!

 

Best wishes - Wolf


Edited by blue eyed sailor, 08 August 2014 - 06:31 PM.


#30 chas

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 09:46 AM

Hi Chas - oh no, Simon is perfectly well as to my knowledge

 

Well that's a relief. :)

 

Three time!  What to choose?  Here's my favourite 3/2 hornpipe, Flat Cap, played on two Wheatstone treble ECs.  I hope that works.  My PC suddenly doesn't like Soundcloud.



#31 Wolf Molkentin

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 11:17 AM

Jim and Chas, thanks for posting some if these 2/3 tunes - guess they're the next I'll have to go for... :)

Jim, you know that omitting chords is for myself - like for Jim B. too apparently - rather an extra effort, but what you're saying makes sense to me, and your recording has a very fine sense of rhythm and timing...

Chas, I like the sound and feel of a renaissance wind consort (or maybe pipe organ) you've been producing here...

#32 Wolf Molkentin

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 11:43 AM

Here is Tombigbee's Waltz.  GD Morse Anglo
Working on sustaining R hand and lightening up on L.
 
Messed up in middle, but don't have time to redo right now.
 
https://www.youtube....eature=youtu.be


Very nice tune and playing Daria - and don't worry about the middle section, it's particularly lovely which is clearly coming through as is!

#33 spindizzy

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 12:37 PM

 

Hi Chas - oh no, Simon is perfectly well as to my knowledge

 

Well that's a relief. :)

 

Three time!  What to choose?  Here's my favourite 3/2 hornpipe, Flat Cap, played on two Wheatstone treble ECs.  I hope that works.  My PC suddenly doesn't like Soundcloud.

 

 

 

Oooh nice, I love 3/2's

I'm try to get "if you will not have me......" in playing order I can crack through the first few parts then it all falls apart,  I may have to give up and just throw in the "Cheshire Round"



#34 Jim Besser

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 06:52 PM

Here's my (first?) one:

 

Lochanside

 

a Scottish "Retreat march" (albeit apparently written in 6/8 by some...)

 

 (I hope) as learned from the amiable and much missed Simon "The Pie Man" Thoumire...

 

('twas great, your teaching, sharing music and chatting with you back in 2013 mate! would be nice to meet you again some time!)

 

Nice tune well played. Is this a modern tune or trad?  3/4 marches are a  sadly neglected genre, IMO.



#35 Jim Besser

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 06:55 PM

 

Hi Chas - oh no, Simon is perfectly well as to my knowledge

 

Well that's a relief. :)

 

Three time!  What to choose?  Here's my favourite 3/2 hornpipe, Flat Cap, played on two Wheatstone treble ECs.  I hope that works.  My PC suddenly doesn't like Soundcloud.

 

 

Nice. I find these 3/2 tunes mesmerizing and sort of confusing.  I need to work on my 3/2 skills, for sure.



#36 bellowbelle

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Posted 09 August 2014 - 07:11 PM

 

My own feeling is that the particular attraction of these tunes is in the variation of stresses within and among measures, and that common chording patterns tend to usurp this with their own, more "ordinary" emphases. And on a single concertina, in particular, it can be impossible to separate the two, the way one might with one instrument playing melody and another playing a more subdued backup.

 
I 'agree,' if that's the word, with this idea about melody vs. chords, or melody with chords.   Thing is... I do really love chords, too, and all those pretty ones like the ninths and elevenths and whatever...  but I think they need to fall into place as a complement to the melody, on the concertina.  At least, for me.  I mean, unless the piece was written to show off something about chords, I guess.

Well, my point is not meant to be about whether to use chords, but how to use them. And in particular with tunes that have complex or "unusual" rhythm, if they're not being used in a way that emphasizes and enhances those rhythms -- if they obscure or distract from those rhythms, -- then they're better left out.
 

Jim, I like all your 'Theme' stuff but some of it I have to play later when my internet connection is stronger...  the last two don't want to play right now on my Chromebook.


I don't know that I can help with that. They're all simple MP3 files, and all in the same directory/folder on the same server. There shouldn't be any difference in how your browser handles them.
 

Also...   sometimes, since I don't have much of an education re all the different kinds of (names for) tunes -- it can be a little hard to immediately grab, from a recording, how it would be best counted.  So, feel free to give a little note about a count-out, if you want... like, would I count '1-2-3, 1-2-3,' and does the first note start on a 1, etc..  If you just say '3/4 time,' that's easy, but when you say 'Polska,' etc., I'm not sure exactly what that means, re the timing.


Sorry about not further explaining the polska, but since it's been a topic of discussion lately -- even to having it's own thread, -- I thought any questions would already have been asked and answered. The polska is considered to be the Swedish national (folk) dance.  The tunes and dance have a repeating 3-"beat" stress pattern that is normally notated as 3/4.  Waltzes are also normally written in 3/4, but the details of the stress pattern are different.

 

You ask about 1-2-3, but it's not that simple, since the stresses are rarely all equal.  I.e., 1-2-3 is more common for a waltz, while 1-2-3, 1-2-3 may be more appropriate for polskas.  And even that is misleading, since boldface only allows me to indicate two levels/intensities of stress, while a tune in 3/4 may well have three different values in a single measure.

 

Does it always start on "1"?  Musically, no, though in a dance the first step will (almost?) always be on "1".  But some tunes (not all) may have one or more "pickup" notes, which act as preparation for the first "downbeat"="1".

 

Maybe I should say a bit more about the concept of "in 3", but I think that should be a separate post, so for now I'll stop here.

 

 

I've listened to a few polskas here & there online but sometimes I can't pick out the rhythm from the recording (audio or video with dancing).  I think that if I'd been there for real, of course, it would have been easy!  Not that the recordings are that bad, but it's just so much easier if it's live.

 

And your recordings, the MP3s, are fine -- I just have some limited connection ability here.  (Working on that!)






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