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Crabb 61K Crane Duet On Ebay - Another Scam?


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#19 ceemonster

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 10:49 PM

how bout this theory?

 

Antiquity music is authentic. "marcmaudio" is not, and is vacuuming from the antiquity music listings. it's one thing to be snotty about your ridiculous price. but it's another to one, have a no-return policy and, two, say you won't have internal pix "for a while."

 

I've just been on the antiquity web site.  a jeffries duet and a lach edeophone are listed there.  a 61-button crane duet is not.



#20 MatthewVanitas

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Posted 24 March 2014 - 11:02 PM

How many folks have to hit "report item" before eBay does anything?



#21 Daniel Hersh

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 12:09 AM

how bout this theory?

 

Antiquity music is authentic. "marcmaudio" is not, and is vacuuming from the antiquity music listings. it's one thing to be snotty about your ridiculous price. but it's another to one, have a no-return policy and, two, say you won't have internal pix "for a while."

 

I've just been on the antiquity web site.  a jeffries duet and a lach edeophone are listed there.  a 61-button crane duet is not.

 

An interesting theory.  FYI, marcmaudio's completed sales are not of inexpensive items - most are for $1000+.  Since you're in the area, I hope you do get a chance to ask to see the concertina in person. (I suppose you could also contact Antiquity Music and ask if the eBay listings that duplicate their own items are legit.)  I still think that it's conceivable that marcmaudio has an option to buy the concertina if he finds a seller but doesn't have it in hand.

 

How many folks have to hit "report item" before eBay does anything?

 

It depends on whether eBay feels that they have grounds to do anything.  I'm not yet convinced that this is a fraudulent listing, and I would bet that eBay isn't convinced either, unless there's evidence beyond what's been presented here so far.


Edited by Daniel Hersh, 25 March 2014 - 12:16 AM.


#22 blue eyed sailor

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 12:56 AM

FWIW,My eBay inquiry preceded here by the seller's reply.Dear danersen,I won't have pictures of the insides for a while. If you think that $2750 is a premium price for this rare concertina, look elsewhereSent from my iPhoneOn Mar 23, 2014, at 8:34 AM, "eBay Member: danersen" wrote:From: danersenTo: marcmaudioSubject: Re: danersen has sent a question about item #161251573754, ending on Mar-23-14 17:24:00 PDT - J Crabb and Son concertina, catalogs Jeffries Wheatstone Lachenal accordion rareSent Date: Mar-23-14 08:34:21 PDTDear marcmaudio,Hello,Do you have photos of the reeds and reed pans that you can send?The external appearance suggests that there could be corrosion on the reeds and degradation of the internal parts.This is critical to know given your listing price and no return policy as it may well require a substantial investment to restore it to proper playing condition.A close-up photo of the oval name plate will also be very helpful.FYI, while Crabb concertinas are highly regarded and Crane systems by Crabb are not plentiful, neither is the demand as it is not a widely-played system and has a very limited following.This, along with the uncertainty of its condition, run contrary to your expectation that this concertina should/will sell at a premium price.Thank you.

Not that I believe it would be him in person, but doesn't that sound pretty much like some Gpanda answering questions as reported here? :D

And if so, what would we make out of that?

#23 ceemonster

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 03:28 PM

Just got off the phone with the guy.  The Crabb Crane IS in stock.  The Jeffries 61b and the Lach 56b currently listed on their site are sold, said he hasn't gotten around to pulling the listings from his site and posting the Crabb Crane on his site. I'm at least going go see it but may not be able to until thursday or friday, and am posting the intel here in the interest of fair reporting.    No clue why they switched seller names and are starting over with zero or only 1 ebay number logged, don't like that....but they are for real, for what it's worth.


Edited by ceemonster, 25 March 2014 - 09:23 PM.


#24 MatthewVanitas

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 04:24 PM



.but they are for real, for what it's worth.

 

Huh, when first I saw the reply "If you think that $2750 is a premium price for this rare concertina, look elsewhere", I wondered why a scammer would be rude when a nicer answer would seem more convincing and help get in some bids.

 

But now we see that it actually is a real seller... just one that prefers to be rude rather than professional. Would it be that hard to say "We'll try to have photos posted soon, but regardless of internal condition we believe that this instrument is worth at least the $2750 asking price so we'll be starting it there and seeing how the market responds. Thanks for checking in, and watch our listing for updated internal photos later, which I believe will reassure you that our asking price is more than fair!"

 

Took me all of 45 seconds to write that; it just frustrates me when sellers are snotty, particularly since it's just shooting themselves in the foot.



#25 ceemonster

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 09:25 PM

[[But now we see that it actually is a real seller... just one that prefers to be rude rather than professional.]]

 

yeah, it's an indication of something, not sure what, but not something attractive.  the facebook page for that business has a youtube of an interview with the guy where he's saying in the same kind of tone you quoted, that shoppers are often disappointed that his instruments cost thousands of dollars and they can't afford to buy them, which is kind of an odd remark. 

 

my new theory is, the party has cash. and they are in a position to move that cash quickly into auctions of dilapidated, unrestored instruments, but dilapidated unrestored instruments that are rare enough that the party can subsequently flip them and still make a profit without doing anything to restore or repair them.  perhaps they travel to europe and buy the stuff there, rolling some cool travel into one big fuzzy ball with a business tax write-off. 

 

maybe nowadays you can buy instruments from one continent from auction lots in another continent, and the party wields their cash in that manner, who knows....I guess if you were really flush you could beat out the small uk dealers who go to the auctions there, but do old concertinas go cheap enough at the uk auctions that it'd be worth the duty costs to bring the stuff here and turn it over?  I can't believe that old concertinas of this type are showing up in the us---maybe there are some here, and that's how it is being done...


Edited by ceemonster, 25 March 2014 - 10:58 PM.


#26 ceemonster

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Posted 25 March 2014 - 11:01 PM

oops-strike the last graph in my last post, speculating about whether this person is buying old concertinas in the u.s.--forgot you folks had established earlier in the thread that this instrument was auctioned in the UK. 

 

 

[It did sell - I forget the exact hammer price, but it was something of the order of £1300.]  huh. if it really sold in that range, i guess i don't understand the profit angle here, then.  in US dollars, that just isn't that much less than what it's now priced at when you figure in duty or shipping to get it here.  i dunno---is there a vat deduction on antique auction goods? i don't get it.


Edited by ceemonster, 25 March 2014 - 11:02 PM.


#27 Dieppe

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 12:51 PM

Antiquity Music is definitely a real place. I got my most recent concertina from them from an eBay auction. They seem to buy instruments from auctions and resell them.  (Mine came from an auction in England.)  They don't do any concertina restoration, and seem to know absolutely nothing about concertinas. The eBay listing will often have no more information than the original auction listing, though they're careful not to display serial numbers.  If they list it too high, they'll relist it for a better price. I wouldn't say that they're a clearing house for musical instruments, as they do seem to deal with a lot of instruments (harpsichords, and a few other weird instruments), but I'm guessing if they buy an instrument on auction and resell it clearing a few hundred or a thousand dollars then they're doing well.

 

The guys that work there aren't so bad, and they are making instruments as well. Just keep in mind that they know nothing about concertinas, and are passing it on to you. If you find the original auction price, make them an offer a few hundred over and they'd probably sell it.

 

Patrick 



#28 Dieppe

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 12:53 PM

 



.but they are for real, for what it's worth.

 

Huh, when first I saw the reply "If you think that $2750 is a premium price for this rare concertina, look elsewhere", I wondered why a scammer would be rude when a nicer answer would seem more convincing and help get in some bids.

 

But now we see that it actually is a real seller... just one that prefers to be rude rather than professional. Would it be that hard to say "We'll try to have photos posted soon, but regardless of internal condition we believe that this instrument is worth at least the $2750 asking price so we'll be starting it there and seeing how the market responds. Thanks for checking in, and watch our listing for updated internal photos later, which I believe will reassure you that our asking price is more than fair!"

 

Took me all of 45 seconds to write that; it just frustrates me when sellers are snotty, particularly since it's just shooting themselves in the foot.

 

 

They're probably waiting for the instrument to be shipped to them from the UK before they can take photos of it.

 

Patrick



#29 ceemonster

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Posted 26 March 2014 - 06:38 PM

[if you find the original auction price, make them an offer a few hundred over and they'd probably sell it.]  ...unfortunately, the original auction price was in UK sterling.  they then brought it back to the US (supposedly it is in stock for viewing).  that means, at "a few hundred over the auction price," the US buyer takes a soaking.  that is a problematic state of affairs if you're looking at a dilapidated, unrestored instrument and you'd be paying to have the restoration done.   it might be a dandy crane after restoration--be helpful if one could do one's own restoration (unlike yours truly).  but given the exchange rate problem, it might be hard for a buyer in $$$s to acquire it low enough in us$$  given the uk auction price to make it a fair expenditure to have it restored.  if it needs a new bellows, that's getting up towards a grand.  cleaning, re-setting reeds, voicing reeds, tuning reeds, valves, pads, blah, blah, plus polishing/repairing the ends---that's all gonna be around a grand and possibly more like $1500.  100 years old--the action is gonna need major repairs, that will cost.  if the action needs replacing outright, that's REALLY gonna cost.  i'm not counting, re-plating the ends.  I intend to go look at it, but i'm really jammed at work and they won't open for you on the weekend, another indication of high regard for the customer....


Edited by ceemonster, 26 March 2014 - 07:29 PM.


#30 danersen

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 09:22 AM

GBP
920 - hammer price per auction house representative
184 - 20% buyer premium per auction house policy
28 - 3% online purchase premium per auction house policy
1132 - auction total in GBP

Currency conversion on 4th March
1.67 - usd -> gbp

~ US$1895

+ shipping

Edited by danersen, 27 March 2014 - 09:26 AM.


#31 alex_holden

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 12:24 PM

+ Import duty?

#32 JimLucas

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 01:59 PM

+ Import duty?

 
Geoff Crabb indicated in this post that the J. Crabb name means it was made no later than 1908.
 

I believe that the U.S. Customs definition of "antique" is "more than 100 years old", and that "antiques" are exempt from import duty.



#33 danersen

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 02:37 PM

Alex,
I think that, technically, there may actually be something like a 3% import duty "on the books"; however, I have never been assessed any amount on any of the concertinas I have purchased and had shipped to the US from either Europe or Australia over many years.
In any case, Jim's argument may likely prevail given that the buyer in this instance is one who deals in antiquities.
Dan

#34 Stephen Chambers

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Posted 27 March 2014 - 07:20 PM

Puts pedant hat on for a minute ;)

 

... the buyer in this instance is one who deals in antiquities

 

Well, antiques anyway - unless you think Crabb's were making concertinas in the Dark Ages, or earlier - in which case we might need to seriously rewrite the history of the concertina... :unsure:



#35 danersen

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 08:58 AM

Thanks, Stephen.
I just learned a new tidbit.
Do I now understand correctly that "antique" usually refers to a thing and "antiquity" refers to an era or period of time?
It seems that Antiquity Music is confusing to me in more ways than one.
Dan

#36 Stephen Chambers

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Posted 28 March 2014 - 12:57 PM

Do I now understand correctly that "antique" usually refers to a thing and "antiquity" refers to an era or period of time?

 

Dan,

 

They can, but no.

 

"Antiques" are (or should be) collectable objects that have a high value because of their age and quality. They should be at least 100 years old.

 

"Antiquities" are antiques from ancient times (a.k.a. "antiquity") going back at least to the Dark Ages (before the Renaissance, or even the Middle Ages) and especially to the ancient civilisations of Egypt, Greece and Rome. So they'd usually be more than 1,000 years old, and possibly several thousand...

 

It seems that Antiquity Music is confusing to me in more ways than one.
Dan

 

You're not alone! :rolleyes:

 

And I don't suppose they've got a 4,000 year-old ancient Egyptian harp, a 2,500 year-old Greek cithara or even a 2,000 year-old Roman cornu in their inventory either, which would be deemed "antiquities"... :huh:

 

Whilst the Crane duet in question is barely 100 years old, so only just qualifies as "antique".


Edited by Stephen Chambers, 29 March 2014 - 08:35 PM.





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