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Tune Of The Month, Jan 2014: Josefins Dopvals


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#37 Geoff Wooff

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 08:20 AM

Well, after six months of no postings on TOTM here is the reason why... I have been busy with a new toy.

So here, hopefully http://soundcloud.co...sephins-dopvals

played on the new toy a 46key Wakker Hayden duet. Played in the key of F ( I should have taken David Barnert's lead and tried it in another key but....) with some influences from Ralph Jordan's recording.

Some of this is a bit too Omm-Paa-Paa... sorry I will try harder in future to make it more Duet Concertina and less Accordionish. B)


Edited by Geoff Wooff, 12 January 2014 - 09:06 AM.


#38 Irene S.

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 08:54 AM

 with some influences from Ralph Jordan's recording.

 

:-)
Good examle to take Geoff. I was thinking that this was the time to get the tina out and try making a stab at something .... and this one was going to be the one when I heard what the choice was at the end of December . Just listening to Ralphie's recording of it now , and remembering him sitting on the sofa and playing it to me when illustrating what a Maccann concertina could do. I may leave it for a bit longer, but I still intend to have a try !



#39 Steve Mansfield

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 10:15 AM

Here's my first attempt....
https://soundcloud.c...vals-concertina

 
Nice, but played a bit too fast, Steve. :rolleyes:
 
A matter of taste, I'd say.
 
I've certainly danced many a waltz at that tempo.  :)

I was playing from memory without having listened to any other versions for a day or two, so I suspect my inner metronome was set to English waltz tempos ... If I do get my chordal arrangement up to recording quality it won't be anything like as fast!

#40 Geoff Wooff

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 10:40 AM

 

 with some influences from Ralph Jordan's recording.

 

:-)
Good examle to take Geoff. I was thinking that this was the time to get the tina out and try making a stab at something .... and this one was going to be the one when I heard what the choice was at the end of December . Just listening to Ralphie's recording of it now , and remembering him sitting on the sofa and playing it to me when illustrating what a Maccann concertina could do. I may leave it for a bit longer, but I still intend to have a try !

 

 

 

Yes Irene,

give it a go.... funny how it all appears simple... when it is done..... :)



#41 Chris Drinkwater

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 01:48 PM

 

Here's my first attempt....

https://soundcloud.c...vals-concertina

 

Nice, but played a bit too fast, Steve. :rolleyes:

 

A matter of taste, I'd say.

 

I've certainly danced many a waltz at that tempo.  :)

 

 

Surely, you must have been quite exhausted afterwards, Jim? :ph34r:

 

Chris



#42 JimLucas

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 02:05 PM

Nice, but played a bit too fast, Steve. :rolleyes:

 

A matter of taste, I'd say.

 

I've certainly danced many a waltz at that tempo.  :)

 

Surely, you must have been quite exhausted afterwards, Jim? :ph34r:

 

Not in the least.  If my partner and I step lightly, it doesn't require great energy.

(Keeping close together on the turning step also helps, as it reduces the moment of inertia.  :))

 

In fact, Steve's tempo on this waltz is rather slower than the usual tempo for a hambo, another popular turning dance.



#43 David Barnert

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 07:31 PM

Well, after six months of no postings on TOTM here is the reason why... I have been busy with a new toy.

So here, hopefully http://soundcloud.co...sephins-dopvals

played on the new toy a 46key Wakker Hayden duet. Played in the key of F ( I should have taken David Barnert's lead and tried it in another key but....) with some influences from Ralph Jordan's recording.

Some of this is a bit too Omm-Paa-Paa... sorry I will try harder in future to make it more Duet Concertina and less Accordionish. B)


Congratulations on the new acquisition. So to play the Bb chord with the left hand, you stayed on D in the right. A reasonable solution, if you are forced to play it in F.
 

 

Nice, but played a bit too fast, Steve. :rolleyes:

 
A matter of taste, I'd say.
 
I've certainly danced many a waltz at that tempo.  :)

This brings up the perennial question, do you play a tune exactly how the composer plays it or in a way that addresses the context you are playing it in? In this case, the Väsen video (including the composer on guitar) plays it at a tempo that most dancers I play for (northeastern USA) would consider too slow for waltzing, so I play it faster.



#44 Robert Fisher

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 05:04 AM

 

Here's my first attempt - I'm still aiming to produce a chordal version before the month's out, but for the moment here's the melody  played through twice through in F on my Wheatstone treble. 

 

https://soundcloud.c...vals-concertina

 

Nice, but played a bit too fast, Steve. :rolleyes:

 

Chris

 

 

Whoa... that sounds like a challenge! Fresh from playing American Fiddle music faster than I could quite manage perhaps I should try to pep this up some more ;)

 

But seriously - I liked your version Steve, it sang a little.

 

And I did like Geoff's version too a very clear rendition, well played and recorded - worth a second listen while I back away from the speed challenge.



#45 Chris Drinkwater

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 11:46 AM

In my opinion, a lot of traditional and more recently composed traditional style tunes, get spoilt by being played too fast, especially in sessions. Playing them faster for dancing, as in a ceilidh, is another matter and fine by me. Josefin's Dopvals is a delightful tune, and I just feel that it loses something when played a bit too fast.   :) Also,  I don't think Jim B necessarily had dancing in mind when he set up TOTM! I get a lot more pleasure out of listening to TOTM contributions that are moderately paced, especially if there is an accompaniment to listen to as well, as I can better hear how that fits in. 

 

Chris   



#46 blue eyed sailor

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 12:06 PM

Not wanting to bother anyone I'm nevertheless under the impression that the fact of me having reworked my rendition might have been overlooked due to a page change shortly after having posted the link (the counter stands at "9" since the very beginning).
 
So if you already noticed please ignore this; if not,
 

here is my second attempt

 
(a reworked and rather clean recording with some minor inconstencies in the timing, and maybe just a bit too hurried).

 

Please bear with me, I'd really appreciate any reaction...  :)

 

And Geoff, since your well played version couldn't be farer away from mine regarding personal understanding of "our" tune IMO, I'm still and all the more delighted at the variety of musical approaches to be found just at a single "place" like this. You certainly revealed other aspects of the tune hidden to me priorly.

 

Best wishes - Wolf



#47 Geoff Wooff

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 04:02 PM

So,

a couple of points:    I wrote that the  46 Hayden is my new toy but it is not new, more like   fourth or fifth hand .Which might show that the Hayden does not suit everyone ?

 

                                  Playing this tune in a dance tempo was what I have in mind because that is what I do, socially. In different countries and different générations Dance has more or less importance. These times perhaps in Ireland and England  'the session' has taken root and music is less often played for dancing, but where I live tunes and dancing go hand in hand as they did in the old days. I recall , when I lived in Australia, a neighbour musician , a man of my parents generation, saying "If you cannot dance to it , it is not music!"  Now, I would not go that far  but I definately had dancing in mind when Learning this tune and now I have to transpose it to C if I want to introduce it to our band.. so's it fits on certain key instruments.

 

                                 David, I  continued with the key of F because I like the sound of this concertina in that key and to try to understand how one might get around the problems with harmonising... I liked the  solution in the penultimate bars of holding the low F whilst  playing the C-D-Bb-A-C-F melody. Perhaps this is too simplistic an approach....

 

                                 Wolf, ok I have had a couple of listens to your second recording. What you are doing is very ambitious and I applaud your efforts but the result is a little breathless, you run out of air and appear to be struggling to maintain control the result is that the melody gets choked and lost in all the other stuff . One reason for this is that on a Concertina there is no way to regulate the volume of individual notes. I do not think I would attempt to have so many reeds going at one time on a Treble EC unless it had seven folds in the bellows. I  recommend that if you really wish to pursue this style of playing you should get a Tennor Treble or a longer bellows for the Excelsior. Perhaps a "Less is More" approach might be an improvement ?

 

To all, thanks for your kind comments.

 

Best regards,

Geoff.



#48 JimLucas

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 05:36 PM

In my opinion, a lot of traditional and more recently composed traditional style tunes, get spoilt by being played too fast, especially in sessions. Playing them faster for dancing, as in a ceilidh, is another matter and fine by me. Josefin's Dopvals is a delightful tune, and I just feel that it loses something when played a bit too fast.   :)


Your taste. Fair enough. But not necessarily everyone's

 

Wouldn't it have been more accurate to say "personally, I prefer a somewhat slower tempo" than the dogmatic sounding "...played a bit too fast"?
 

Also, I don't think Jim B necessarily had dancing in mind when he set up TOTM!


Nor do I

 

My understanding of the purpose of TotM is that it's for individuals to share their different interpretations and arrangements, not to judge what's a "right" or "wrong" way to do a particular tune, nor to please any particular individual(s). Slow or fast, high or low, bare melody or heavy with harmony, and any and all gradations in between, I believe the point is to enjoy the variety and individuality, not just a particular interpretation.

 

But I would say that it's certainly not wrong to play something that's named "waltz" by its composer as if it were a dance.
 

I get a lot more pleasure out of listening to TOTM contributions that are moderately paced, especially if there is an accompaniment to listen to as well, as I can better hear how that fits in.


I like slow interpretations, but I also like quick ones. I don't find that I'm missing any subtlety if something is played quick and well.

 

In fact, from what you say, I suspect we may differ not only in taste regarding how music is played, but also in how we listen to music.  E.g., I don't think of an accompaniment as something separate that "fits in", but I hear the arrangement as a unified whole.


Edited by JimLucas, 13 January 2014 - 05:40 PM.


#49 David Barnert

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 05:49 PM

Also,  I don't think Jim B necessarily had dancing in mind when he set up TOTM!

 

I can't speak for Jim, but I know him as a Morris Dance and Contradance musician (both Jims, in fact). I can say that I certainly have dancing in mind whenever I'm playing, even if I'm not playing for dancing. And note that the word "waltz" (or, in this case, "vals") is part of the name of the tune, which suggests that Roger Tallroth had dancing in mind when he wrote the tune.



#50 JimLucas

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 06:09 PM

I just (re)discovered this topic from nearly two years ago. :)



#51 blue eyed sailor

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 10:01 AM

Geoff, thank you for getting yourself into my (2nd) recording, appreciated! Being somewhat puzzled as to the harshness of your critique it's nevertheless giving me the idea of what and where to improve. I believe if one can overcome the difficulties of playing bisonoric instruments like the Melodeon or the Anglo the same will be true with smaller English Concertinas like mine in order to produce "bigger" sounds.

My (still developing) bellows technique for the issue you have mentioned can be heard from the (2nd) recording.

My congrats on finding a new sort of instrument and having learnt playing it that fast - I know the feel!

Best wishes - Wolf

Edited by blue eyed sailor, 14 January 2014 - 10:06 AM.


#52 Geoff Wooff

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 11:03 AM

Geoff, thank you for getting yourself into my (2nd) recording, appreciated! Being somewhat puzzled as to the harshness of your critique it's nevertheless giving me the idea of what and where to improve. I believe if one can overcome the difficulties of playing bisonoric instruments like the Melodeon or the Anglo the same will be true with smaller English Concertinas like mine in order to produce "bigger" sounds.

My (still developing) bellows technique for the issue you have mentioned can be heard from the (2nd) recording.

My congrats on finding a new sort of instrument and having learnt playing it that fast - I know the feel!

Best wishes - Wolf


Wolf,
this was certainly not meant as a harsh critique... it is great that you are trying to push the limits... I'm just suggesting some practical points that could be helpfull. If everyone says "oh that was lovely" just to be nice or says nothing because they fear that they might upset someone, it does not help.

On a Piano the player can choose to attack the keys with varying force, so as to have loud and soft notes at the same moment , on an Organ it is possible to use two (or more) keyboards, so that a melody might shine out clear above an accompaniment. On an Accordion the venting of the melody reeds is much greater than for the chordal end... but on a Concertina, especially the English and the Anglo this is not so easy.

If you look at the arrangements of Regondi ,and others of that period, there is the concertina playing the melody line, with a piano accompaniment. It is not untill much later that the Concertina players started to try to play melody and accomp. togther.
Listen to the arrangements played by Gordon Cutty or any of the old players on English International. Those players aim , generally, for a thinner self accompaniment.

I can get away with far more using my Baritone /Treble , creating extra distance between the melody and harmonies by utilising the extra octave below the treble EC range. Also the Lung capacity with an 8 inch wide Octagon and Seven fold Bellows is much greater.
Also my particular B/T appears to have been designed exactly with this type of playing in mind... coming from a much later period... so the low octave does not drown out the middle notes.

Sorry if I have caused any hurt... :unsure:

 

PS ; thanks for the congrats... it is going to a year or two before I would say " I can play it now".


Edited by Geoff Wooff, 14 January 2014 - 11:23 AM.


#53 blue eyed sailor

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 11:34 AM

I totally agree on the senselessness of just "nice" comments or friendly silence. I didn't ask for that! That said I'm still wondering if the two aspects of (1) taste and style and (2) flaws in producing the intended sounds are in fair balance.

The sound I' aiming at derives from the fiddle and is meant to be dense and compact rather than in the way of the divided concept of the accordion. Besides, I use to play the piano just that way, rich right hand notes followed by "bass" notes in a range not too far away... That's why I believe having to move not sideways but forward.

I have little knowlegde about "older" EC styles which I might have to look for...

Regarding this month's tune I loved to play it in sort of a hymnic mood from the very beginning (in autumn 2013). I'm still working on the clarity of any melody note, but that's only second to the sincereness, or should I say urgency I have in mind. You seem to have featured the playfulness and mood for dancing, and these different angles are just what musical exchange is all about as to me.

Thank you again for your thoughts and hints!

Edited by blue eyed sailor, 14 January 2014 - 11:53 AM.


#54 Robert Fisher

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Posted 14 January 2014 - 06:54 PM

A little heavy handed maybe, but I'm blaming the heat (100 in the old scale today).

 

https://soundcloud.c...osefins-dopvals

 

Subtitled: The many moods of Josephine.






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