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#1 chris ryall

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Posted 10 December 2012 - 07:31 PM

Hello everyone,

Normally I'd listen in a bit more on a new forum before posting, but I've something I hope might be useful and also am off abroad later in the week. I'm an ex Wheatstone Linota player, but nowadays am very much a 3-row melodeonista. I like to play 'in chords' and also improvise a bit and sing with the box. My Linota went to a (very) good home some 9 years ago - though I've had a Dipper on order since well before then .. might not see it?

The facility that 'might' interest people here is squeezebox.chrisryall.net

The page is a generic web box simulator, replicating things I did on spreadsheets a few years ago. It should find scale runs and chord handfuls on 'any' box - it works on simple layout text tokens and so isn't at all concerned with how the instrument works inside. As such it's (intentionally) as valid for concertina as melodeon. Mostly its presets are melodeon layouts at present, but I've put a Lachenal/Linota-30 on a button experimentally and it seems to work just fine.

As the page matures and any bugs are exterminated I'd hope to see is used by this community as well as 'the other place', but will need some other layouts to do that - I'm thinking 'English', the larger Linota-37 and perhaps some of the commoner duets? Might even chance a bandoneón! I hope it might help find unusual chords, off piste scales like Eb, and the cooler things that get used in improvising.

That's enough for now. I'll pop in here regularly to pick up ideas and will try to be sensitive to wishes or criticism expressed here and also mouse around the general forum (as occasionally quoted on melnet!) Here's a link to discussion discussions in 'the other place' - all ideas considered.

Thanks Chris Ryall

#2 marshall

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 04:04 AM

Thanks Chris. That's look interesting. It could have saved me a lot "manual effort" in the past, though I think I have worked out most of the stuff I need at present. But I must give it a try some time.

Is it really 9 years? The Linota still has a good home (I hope!).

Chas


Hello everyone,

Normally I'd listen in a bit more on a new forum before posting, but I've something I hope might be useful and also am off abroad later in the week. I'm an ex Wheatstone Linota player, but nowadays am very much a 3-row melodeonista. I like to play 'in chords' and also improvise a bit and sing with the box. My Linota went to a (very) good home some 9 years ago - though I've had a Dipper on order since well before then .. might not see it?

The facility that 'might' interest people here is squeezebox.chrisryall.net

The page is a generic web box simulator, replicating things I did on spreadsheets a few years ago. It should find scale runs and chord handfuls on 'any' box - it works on simple layout text tokens and so isn't at all concerned with how the instrument works inside. As such it's (intentionally) as valid for concertina as melodeon. Mostly its presets are melodeon layouts at present, but I've put a Lachenal/Linota-30 on a button experimentally and it seems to work just fine.

As the page matures and any bugs are exterminated I'd hope to see is used by this community as well as 'the other place', but will need some other layouts to do that - I'm thinking 'English', the larger Linota-37 and perhaps some of the commoner duets? Might even chance a bandoneón! I hope it might help find unusual chords, off piste scales like Eb, and the cooler things that get used in improvising.

That's enough for now. I'll pop in here regularly to pick up ideas and will try to be sensitive to wishes or criticism expressed here and also mouse around the general forum (as occasionally quoted on melnet!) Here's a link to discussion discussions in 'the other place' - all ideas considered.

Thanks Chris Ryall



#3 eskin

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:28 AM

Great stuff!

#4 chris ryall

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 12:53 PM

Thanks for the kind words Chas, and for giving the Linota the love it deserved:) I've taken
a screenshot of the Anglo pre-set to help (and of course promote)the 'App' Click should link
to it .. Meanwhile - can't remember the 37 key layout. Any chance of a crib?

The 31 version as 'text' is
  E  A♭ C♯ A  A♭     C♯ A  A♭ C♯ F  
 C  G  C  E  G        C  E  G  C  E  
B  D  G  B  D   PUSH   G  B  D  G  B  
             C  
= Wheatstone/Lachenal-31-button-anglo

  F  B♭ E♭ G  B♭      E♭ G  B♭ E♭ A  
 G  B  D  F  A        B  D  F  A  B  
D  F♯ A  C  E   PULL   F♯ A  C  E  F♯ 
             C
Posted Image

Edited by chris ryall, 11 December 2012 - 12:55 PM.


#5 Don Taylor

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Posted 11 December 2012 - 10:51 PM

I am trying to do an EC layout and have found the following:

There is no symbol/token for an Air button - none is shown on the pre-defined Anglo layout so maybe that really is only a nicety to make the keyboard layout complete.

Cutting text with sharps and flats from the html text box (so as to save a work in progress) results in non-ASCII text in the paste buffer which does not save in my editor. It might be better to leave the the text box contents as straight ASCII text.

The phrase "Use keyboard #/b for music's ♭/♯ The input box converts and tidies up automatically. " should have one (#/b ) or the other (♭/♯) transposed. Note that the input box being tidied up automatically is what causes my second problem.

Will try some more tomorrow.

Don.

#6 chris ryall

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 01:57 AM

I am trying to do an EC layout and have found the following:

There is no symbol/token for an Air button - none is shown on the pre-defined Anglo layout so maybe that really is only a nicety to make the keyboard layout complete.

Cutting text with sharps and flats from the html text box (so as to save a work in progress) results in non-ASCII text in the paste buffer which does not save in my editor. It might be better to leave the the text box contents as straight ASCII text.

The phrase "Use keyboard #/b for music's ♭/♯ The input box converts and tidies up automatically. " should have one (#/b ) or the other (♭/♯) transposed. Note that the input box being tidied up automatically is what causes my second problem.


Thanks for those - all valid wishes and one I'd not have thought of!

1. X works on current development version as a blank button - would do for air?
If not a 'O' is easy enough

2. 1960's ASCII is long (long) gone for web use! I've just completely recoded from
1990's iso-8859-1 to the present de facto standard UTF-8 to allow things ♭/♯ after specific
requests in the Other Place! I suspect I might get the same from some here? To do that I
installed a new (free) text editor. There are many online depending on your OS. Having said
that: the characters aren't monospace. Guess I could make 'tidy' a tickbox option

3. Inconsistency noted. When your EC is ready please paste as text there and I'll make it a
pre-set once I get back from Iceland. :)

BTW Does anyone know of any folk events in Reykjavic this weekend? :rolleyes:

#7 marshall

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 05:23 AM

Chris - here is my layout which is the "standard" (I believe) for the Crabb 40 button anglo.

There are 3 differences on the accidental buttons from the "standard" Wheatstone layout.

Chas



>> E A C♯ A A♭ F♯ E♭ C♯ A A♭ C♯ A C
> C G C E G B♭ >> F C E G C E
B D G B D F >>>> B♭ G B D G B
>>>>> >>>>> >>>> push> >>> D >> F♯
>>>>> >>>>> >> C

= Crabb/Wheatstone 40 key C/G layout


>> F B♭ E♭ G B♭ C♯ C♯ E♭ G B♭ E♭ F D
> G B D F A C♯ >> G B D F A B
A F♯ A C E A♭ >>>> A♭ F♯ A C E F♯
>>>>> >>>>> >>>> pull> >>> A >> E
>>>>> >>>>> >> C



Thanks for the kind words Chas, and for giving the Linota the love it deserved:) I've taken
a screenshot of the Anglo pre-set to help (and of course promote)the 'App' Click should link
to it .. Meanwhile - can't remember the 37 key layout. Any chance of a crib?

The 31 version as 'text' is

  E  A♭ C♯ A  A♭     C♯ A  A♭ C♯ F  
 C  G  C  E  G        C  E  G  C  E  
B  D  G  B  D   PUSH   G  B  D  G  B  
             C  
= Wheatstone/Lachenal-31-button-anglo

  F  B♭ E♭ G  B♭      E♭ G  B♭ E♭ A  
 G  B  D  F  A        B  D  F  A  B  
D  F♯ A  C  E   PULL   F♯ A  C  E  F♯ 
             C
Posted Image







#8 chris ryall

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:23 AM

Chris - here is my layout which is the "standard" (I believe) for the Crabb 40 button anglo. There are 3 differences on the accidental buttons from the "standard" Wheatstone layout.

[BIG SNIP!]


Thanks - I'll add that one to the next build. I'm really only interested in 'standard' builds as the variation in the field is massive! Once I master 'cookies', users can edit/ save/ automatically reload any more idiosyncratic layouts.

Is there any 'standard' for duets? ;) C

#9 Simon H

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:49 AM

Here's a 64 button Aeola English TT.
First attempt at this so I'm sure others can improve on the English layouts.
Note the bottom left hand button on e left side which would be D#/Eb has been modified in the past to provide a low B/A.

>>>>> >> E♭ D F F♯
>>>>> >> A♭ G B B♭
>>>>> >> C♯ C E E♭
>>>>> >> F♯ F A A♭
>>>>> >> B♭ B D E♭
>>>>> >> E♭ E G A♭
>>>>> >> A♭ A C C♯
>>>>> >> B D F F♯
= Right Hand


>>>>> >> >> G
>>>>> >> C♯ C E
>>>>> >> F♯ F A A♭
>>>>> >> B♭ B D E♭
>>>>> >> E♭ E G A♭
>>>>> >> A♭ A C C♯
>>>>> >> E♭ D F F♯
>>>>> >> A♭ G B B♭
>>>>> >> C♯ C E E♭


Love this tool, it would be nice to be able to space the rows in stepped fashion in the way the English keyboard is. Also the nice Graphics for push and pull would look very nice if available as Left hand/ Right hand.

Simon

#10 marshall

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:43 AM

I have had a little play around now and checked all my chord diagrams against your simulator. It seems to works fine for this. Really useful. Well done. Chas



Chris - here is my layout which is the "standard" (I believe) for the Crabb 40 button anglo. There are 3 differences on the accidental buttons from the "standard" Wheatstone layout.

[BIG SNIP!]


Thanks - I'll add that one to the next build. I'm really only interested in 'standard' builds as the variation in the field is massive! Once I master 'cookies', users can edit/ save/ automatically reload any more idiosyncratic layouts.

Is there any 'standard' for duets? ;) C



#11 Don Taylor

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 11:26 AM

Chris:

Here is my first attempt at an EC layout - definitely a work in progress so please do not include it in your collection. I am showing it to illustrate a few problems that I have had and to ask for improvement advice.


>>> C >>> >>> >>> >> B♭ B
>>> >>> A A♭ > >>> X >> >> G
> F♯ F >>> >>> >>> >> E♭ E
>>>> >> D >>> >>> >> >>> > C C♯
> B♭ B >>> >>> >>> >>>> A
>>>> >> G A♭ >>> >>> >>> > F F♯
> E♭ E >>> >>> >>> >>> > D
>>>> >> C C♯ >>> >>> >>> > B B♭
>>> A >>> >>> >>> >> A♭ G

= Jack/Jackie 30 button English

(I tried the 30 button Jack/Jackie first because I thought it would be easier to play with. I plan to try a 48 button layout later.)

First of all, I am trying to lay out left and right as left and right, not up and down - which, I think, is contrary to your design intent, but follows SOP for EC layouts. I am also trying to show the staggered button layout that is used on ECs. While this is not wholly successful I guess it could look worse and maybe some additional spaces could improve the look of the layout.

Two problems: I cannot get some of the columns to line up quite vertically whatever I do. Most are OK, but some seem to wander off a few pixels. The top C should be lined up with the FBEA below it. Is this a font kerning problem?

You code always rewrites G#, for example, as Ab. I know that they are the same note but on a full EC we have buttons for both G# and Ab so I don't think that you should rewrite the symbols. Alternatively, you could simply provide a # button and a b button (with no note) - this is what is commonly used in EC layout diagrams. (edit: that last suggestion probably does not make sense because you need to know what note the button actually represents. I don't really mind the rewriting of G# to Ab so please feel free to ignore this).

Later,

Don.

Edited by bufflehead, 12 December 2012 - 12:20 PM.


#12 chris ryall

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:10 PM

I've (bravely perhaps) uploaded my development version 2.1 which has handles installed for several ideas come in from the two forums. Most are not yet linked to code to make them work!

Sound is definitely 'greyed out' though it does now make noises in Firefox. There's a bug in appearance the sound buttons in the simulation which should be transparent (OK at home, not on web)! As sound is N/A that shouldn't matter.

English concertina came in 'vertically' but I find it much more manageable with left on the left, right on right. Advice sought from its players. cc'd "The Other Place" C
______________________________________

Don - the text input is merely tokens to inform the graphic. The graphics are laid out in HORIZONTAL lines and if you lay out your keyboard thus it will line up. Trying top do it with ">>" will I'm afraid be a mugs game. Nor (I think) will it ever do curved lines of buttons. It's there to inform scale/chord play - not to simulate everyone's box.

Tip: find a layout similar to your own box and modify it. That's what I do. And use the text box as it's own 'editor' - drag/drop works! Even Ctrl-Z = undo works!!

[edit] Just spotted the Ab/G# issue .. the "App" fundamentally tokenises both of these as '11' and getting it to display the two differently .. depending on "which notes they were next to" would be beyond awkward. I guess I'm saying the EC isn't entirely logical in music notation (as opposed to geometric) terms?

The good news is that on the graphic the G# will still be next to A :)

Edited by chris ryall, 12 December 2012 - 03:48 PM.


#13 Simon H

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 12:51 PM

Probably make sense to alter my Aeola layout to more standard. The left hand bottom row should be. D# D F F# , that will be more use to others who want to use it.

Simon

#14 Don Taylor

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:46 PM

Don - the text input is merely tokens to inform the graphic. The graphics are laid out in HORIZONTAL lines and if you lay out your keyboard thus it will line up. Trying top do it with ">>" will I'm afraid be a mugs game. Nor (I think) will it ever do curved lines of buttons. It's there to inform scale/chord play - not to simulate everyone's box.

Well, I can't see a way to get either vertical or horizontal alignment to show anything like any EC layout. It is not a question of showing a curve, the buttons are just not next to their partners where they would be on the keyboard. The Anglo layout works because the alignment is correct even without a curve. The AEola-English 64 layout is a very rough approximation of an EC layout - it looks more like a button accordion layout to me.

BTW. I still think there is a problem with > handling as it does not consistently follow this rule:
Lay out your buttons using '>s separated by (ignored) spaces - see presets fro examples. A '>' at left margin indents ˝ button per arrow and 1-5 can be blocked together (eg '>>>>>' = 2˝ buttons)
For example, try this:
>>> C
> F♯ F
according to this rule the C and F buttons should be vertically aligned.

Tip: find a layout similar to your own box and modify it.

I don't see one, but I will use my imagination on the AEola English 64 layout.

Don't get me wrong, I do like this tool a lot and plan to use it.

Don.

#15 chris ryall

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 03:18 AM

I've attached a screenshot of "what might work" for EC below. Buttons in horizontal rows is a fairly fundamental constraint at present. It will be possible to nudge them up or down using CSS .. but that'd add a whole extra layer to the text input. Definitely a 'next year' development.

Could EC members interested have a look at the shot and perhaps try it themselves - would it 'work'? After all we are never going to actually play the thing! It's just to conveniently find those note sets. :rolleyes:

Chris

Current state of debate in the Other Place: http://forum.melodeo....html#msg138086

[edit] Grr - .png images don't seem to attach here - click the image below :unsure:

Posted Image

Whoops - on melnet it displays much smaller! BTW is that top G in the right place? I ... guessed

Edited by chris ryall, 13 December 2012 - 03:36 AM.


#16 Simon H

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:00 AM

The last G on the right hand is above the C on the instrument.

I guess though most people will prefer to tinker with the standard 48b English.


A♭ G B B♭ >>>> F♯ F A A♭
C♯ C E E♭ >>>> B♭ B D E♭
F♯ F A A♭ >>>> E♭ E G A♭
B♭ B D E♭ >>>> A♭ A C C♯
E♭ E G A♭ >>>> E♭ D F F♯
A♭ A C C♯ >>>> A♭ G B B♭

= 48 key-English

#17 chris ryall

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 06:41 AM

Noted - yes - the 'standard' box will be more useful and will be a definite pre-set.I'll move your button across when I get home

#18 chris ryall

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Posted 29 December 2012 - 03:25 AM

Thanks for the advice so far. I've cracked the staggered rows issue for the English Concertina but at the price of losing editability. I don't play it myself so the issue is please - does that matter? From what I've gathered so far the EC-48 is a very standard piece of kit - so perhaps not?

Secondly - do really need a second layout for the eg Aeola and Edeophone (are there others)? My impression is yes - but web images are a bit vague as to what button does what

TIA - the web 'production' version has NOT changed, and I attach screenshot of my testbed EC at home for comment and advice please Chris


Posted Image

Edited by chris ryall, 29 December 2012 - 03:28 AM.




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