11 replies to this topic

[michael sam wild]

I have recently gone back to this lovely CD (2009) of concerts recorded in 2007 before Kitty Hayes passed awy in 2008,


She was playing superbly in her eighties , having taken it up again later in life. It is very rhythmic and she plays a C/G anglo along the C row mainly. I have been playing along to work out the keys of the tunes and she was playing in F, Gminor, Dminor, C and occasionally G.


She had musicians with her like Peter Laban, Martin Hayes, Josephine Marsh and Eoin O'Neill who coud play in those keys. I find that in a session such keys throw flute players and some fiddlers.


As Dan Worrall writes in his book, C was commonly played when concertina players were the main musicians for dancing, I hadn't realised how F came so readily, many of the tunes don't ue the Bflat of the accidental row. As Martin Hayes commented ' Kitty played with great common sense'. By this I assume he meant that she took tunes suited to the instrument and adapted them to the possibilities and limitations of the instrument.


For one who is constantly working to play reels in D, G and A in sessions it is a pleasure to relax and play along in these more comfortable keys



I suppose a G/D Anglo would afford the same way of playing in more usual keys but as they weren't available in the old days the concertina style evolved in other ways. Any ideas.
If Peter Laban is still on concertina net maybe he could comment.

Thanks

Edited by michael sam wild, 28 June 2012 - 09:27 AM.

[Peter Laban]

I suppose a G/D Anglo would afford the same way of playing in more usual keys but as they weren't available in the old days the concertina style evolved in other ways. Any ideas.

Kitty had a D/G for a while and it didn't suit her at all. I actually tried sell it for her here but no takers so she sent it back at considerable financial loss.

A D/A would have been the way to go to take her style of playing to concert pitch.

Edited by Peter Laban, 28 June 2012 - 10:08 AM.

[Geoff Wooff]

It would appear from your assessment Michael that Kitty was playing one tone flatter than the normal keys and that is the way I recall it from Sunday night sessions at Gleesons Bar. A G/D Anglo is not a tone sharper than a C/G but four tones flatter... so the same method of fingering used by Kitty would not give you the 'normal' session keys...I think

My wife and I will always remember Kitty as a very natural musical and a real sweetheart.

Geoff.

[Geoff Wooff]

I suppose a G/D Anglo would afford the same way of playing in more usual keys but as they weren't available in the old days the concertina style evolved in other ways. Any ideas.

Kitty had a D/G for a while and it didn't suit her at all. I actually tried sell it for her here but no takers so she sent it back at considerable financial loss.

A G/A would have been the way to go to take her style of playing to concert pitch.

Don't you mean D/A Peter ?

[Peter Laban]

'course I do.

fixed that.

[michael sam wild]

Thanks Geoff and Peter. I think I meant that as she seemed to play more like a mouth organ player on a C instrument would; to play in G and D mainly along the rows a G/D might be OK. She played in C that simpler mouth organ fashion as some of the old players did.to get octaves. it's interesting that in Dan Worrall's book he mentions that when she heard an old recording of Michael Doyle (1897-1970) who she had known and held in high regard, she reportedly exclaimed according to Peter 'My God, his playin 'is even more old-fashioned than my own!'



I I see what you mean Geoff, D middle row would give G in her style. A on inner row would give D


I I love exploring the way the older players like William Mullaly, Mrs Crotty, Mickie O'Donoghue and Kitty Hayes to name a few worked along the rows mainly to get keys starting from a note that defined the tune and then adapting the tune and ' fudging' notes here and there. As a mouthorgan player as achild it's my 'intuitive' default approach on the Anglo.

[michael sam wild]

I started another thread on playing in F etc. By the way I think the attached shows Kitty playing in octaves. Dan Worrall taked about octaves in C but F seems to have been common too. So more to work at!


http://www.youtube.c...9635&playnext=2

Edited by michael sam wild, 13 July 2012 - 04:56 AM.

[michael sam wild]

I have been listening carefully to A Touch of Clare, (2001) , recorded in a kitchen in Ennis. The number of tunes in F is very interesting and I am beginning to appreciate how the early players adapted the C/G Anglo to play along the C row on a two row instrument. Kitty Hayes was born 1926 and learned off her father who played with older pipers etc. He must have been a second or first generation player and they were making it up as they went along as were melodeon players.



Tunes we now commonly accept in D and G must have been influenced by playing with concert fluters. These had come onto the folk market as newer systems came into orchestras. D pipes came into wider use at the end of the C19th and fiddlers like D and G



If earlier players had C pipes , Clarke's C whistles and mouth organs in C then concertina players could go for C and F in sets, although they seem to have played the same tune for a long spell in a dance. Even when early 1920s 78 records came in they could adapt the tunes to play D/G sets in C/F. many would play alone , particularly women in the house while men were out at work or off socialising.


By 'fudging' or composing new variants they could get a long way on the C row, D minor is relative to F and A minor to C.


What I have found is that once you have 'turned your head round' F is nice , you don't go below C very much on the LHS and on the right, for a right handed player the highest note on the RHS is a on the little finger which seems stronger than on the LHS. The playing is nice and bouncy and economical and octaves and simple 2 note chords and inversions fall under the fingers. You hardly need to touch the air button and can play for ages.

You don't miss the B flat after a while and seek out other notes that would fit with other players who might use it.


I don't think a Bb/F concertina would be necessary at all and playing in F on the C/G is just another style in the armoury of the very versatile C/G.( a cajun player would play in G on a one row C accordion and a concertina could do the same with some tuning tweaks to get that sound)


I am now also seriously thinking of converting a C/G to D/A (as opposed to the common G/D used by 'English' players) That would allow D and G on the 'middle' row so that you could play along in sessions in this 'old style' fashion and get the common session keys, after all D and A on a C/G are very challenging and counterintuitive to a simple diatonic player.

In fact a one row D concertina would be very nice and cheap to construct


There has been discussion before on c.net where it has been suggested that William Mullaly played a D/A tuned concertina, the recent CD and booklet still does not clear up the mystery of what instrument he played (IMHO)

[Peter Laban]

Michael, you're making a few assumptions there that aren't correct:

her father who played with older pipers

He didn't, he played with flute and fiddle players. In fact pipers were few and far between. Willie Clancy for example never heard a piper until he was in his early twenties.

If earlier players had C pipes

C pipes were relatively uncommon compared to B and D sets

how the early players adapted the C/G Anglo to play along the C row on a two row instrument.

I think it's probably more the other way around, the C/G wasn't adapted to play in C, it was Paddy Murphy who adapted the C/G to play in D on the mistaken assumption that what he heard William Mullally do on the 78 rpms was done on on a C/G.

[michael sam wild]

Michael, you're making a few assumptions there that aren't correct:

her father who played with older pipers

He didn't, he played with flute and fiddle players. In fact pipers were few and far between. Willie Clancy for example never heard a piper until he was in his early twenties.

If earlier players had C pipes

C pipes were relatively uncommon compared to B and D sets

how the early players adapted the C/G Anglo to play along the C row on a two row instrument.

I think it's probably more the other way around, the C/G wasn't adapted to play in C, it was Paddy Murphy who adapted the C/G to play in D on the mistaken assumption that what he heard William Mullally do on the 78 rpms was done on on a C/G.

Thanks Peter I'm grateful for that info. I had been given information by a pipe maker that indicated C tuning was common. I bow to your knowledge



As far as playing in C, I do think older players on their own would take tunes more usually played in D and G and put them in more C row friendly keys

I reached the same conclusion about Paddy Murphy. As C/G concertinas were more common it is likely that anyone hearing Mullally(, the only widely available 78 recording of an anglo player) would try to play in D on the C/G.
. I had a go at the jig in D on his first track (Jackson's Thought =Cherish the Ladies) Transposed into C it goes much more easily along the row . He would find it straightforward along his D row concertina ( I still suspect it would be a D/A) He was still a brilliant player as were Kimmel and Conlon on the melodeon/button accordion where they played up and down the rows in the press and draw fashion


I'd be very grateful to hear what Kitty Hyes had to say about why she chose F on the C/G. Please get in touch if you'd like to let me know or can point me to any published material
Thanks

Mike

Edited by michael sam wild, 15 July 2012 - 03:49 AM.

[Peter Laban]

Kitty played the way she played. At some point Custy's sold her a C/G Lachenal and her playing fell in C and F. It wasn't really a choice. She would have loved a good responsive D/A concertina she could afford.

[michael sam wild]

I know what you mean, I think when instruments were less common and less studied by people like us here, folk got what they could and got tunes out of them. In the process some great techniques evolved, often not what the makers intended, you see it with accordions , melodeons and mouth organs where some very interesting approaches have been adopted. cajun, blues, tex mex,zulu squashbox etc etc. I just love trying to understand the process and how the playing and the tunes interacted. What can seem a limtation often gives fascinating opportunities.