36 replies to this topic

[shelly0312]

Well, you guys are so helpful: here's another conundrum. I have a lovely "new" Wheatstone (what Greg describes as:) tenor extended down (TED). Its bass is another octave lower than a regular EC. I have been playing EC for about 2 years--and am finally pretty confident about reading music and doing fingerings on the fly in the treble clef. Now, I have a whole bass clef at my fingertips--but I can barely read this clef and complete flub the fingerings from one day to the next. I only have about 2 1/2 pages of bass clef practice pages and they get pretty boring. So what instrument reads off the bass clef most of its music line? What music book could I use that would have some interesting music lines mostly in the bass clef for me to really practice that whole lower octave and a half until I am as confident as with the other three higher ones in the treble clef?

[michelv]

Try cello or bassoon music.

[Larry Stout]

Music written for baritone concertina tended to use treble clef and sound an octave lower. I've played my baritone without learning bass clef.

[Geoff Wooff]

You could try easy Piano arrangements so that you could learn to incorporate the use of the bottom octave with the treble range. This is one way that I have been using my 56key Baritone/Treble (Wheatstone parlance) or Geoff Crabb's Label for this model is as you have it from Greg, Tennor Extended Down.

Another way that I applied was to take a melody line that I normally played in the treble range and play it an octave lower or two octaves lower if there is room to do so. This teaches the fingers to know where the notes are. After this it should be much easier to read the Bass Clef as it is only the one thing that the brain is having to work on at any moment.

My current idea is to play this type of EC as if it were a duet; melody line with some harmony and an added bass line an octave or so below.
I am assuming that you have enough upper range to allow this.

Geoff.

[spindizzy]

Well, you guys are so helpful: here's another conundrum. I have a lovely "new" Wheatstone (what Greg describes as:) tenor extended down (TED). Its bass is another octave lower than a regular EC. I have been playing EC for about 2 years--and am finally pretty confident about reading music and doing fingerings on the fly in the treble clef. Now, I have a whole bass clef at my fingertips--but I can barely read this clef and complete flub the fingerings from one day to the next. I only have about 2 1/2 pages of bass clef practice pages and they get pretty boring. So what instrument reads off the bass clef most of its music line? What music book could I use that would have some interesting music lines mostly in the bass clef for me to really practice that whole lower octave and a half until I am as confident as with the other three higher ones in the treble clef?

I know the feeling, I had a basoon on loan for a while and reading the bass clef was really hard going. (There's quite a lot of interesting bassoon music available free online).
Alternatively as someone suggested. The treble clef symbol with a small 8 at the bottom means that it should be read an octave lower. (soprano recorders read from the treble clef too ... but there should be a small 8 at the top of the treble clef symbol to show it's meant to be played an octave up)

[JimLucas]

I have a lovely "new" Wheatstone (what Greg describes as:) tenor extended down (TED). Its bass is another octave lower than a regular EC.

I wasn't familiar with the term "tenor extended down", but I just read GW's post, so I see it's what I would call a baritone-treble. Music written in bass clef for cello, bassoon, or trombone will mostly extend to notes lower than what you have, but the instruments with your range (nothing in the modern viol family, but various winds) are normally transposing instruments (i.e., the notes as written are not their actual pitches) and their music is normally written in treble clef. Not a winner.

But a "simple" way to get music to practice is to take whatever tunes you like and transpose them down an octave, specifying that they should then be displayed in the bass clef (if that's not already default for a tune in that range). I don't do ABC, but I would guess that at least some of the ABC-to-clef notation programs can do such transposition, so we can hope that the local experts will be able to tell you how to do that.

Now, I have a whole bass clef at my fingertips--but I can barely read this clef and complete flub the fingerings from one day to the next.

Are you comfortable with scales and intervals on your concertina, independent of key? That should make reading easier. E.g., a jump of a third -- in reading music, that's a jump from a line (or space) to the next nearest line (or space) -- is simply a minimal diagonal move that stays in the same hand. Thinking of feeling it that way, instead of from one particular note to another particular note, should make it relatively (pun acknowledged) easy to read in any clef and any key (well, most keys).

[Dirge]

There are lots of beginners piano arrangements on the net. Have a trawl. The right ones are not only simple but don't use the full range of the piano either (I think it's because they are intended for children with limited reach.), so ideal. I'd have thought Anglo players could look at these too, for a change of diet.

You will find them in all flavours from pop and folk to classical or downright banal. (simple dances themed on fairies for 7 year old girls)

I rarely buy music any more. I bought a lot of music when I was learning the piano and it often turned out to be unsuitable (too hard!) These days, looking at piano music for the duet I most certainly don't want to buy it and find it useless, so I find it on the net; I have favourite pages for downloads of sheet music bookmarked. There really is tons of it. Watch out for music shops that are trying to get you to look at their website in the hope you'll be lazy enough to pay them for what you want out of laziness.

The beginners books are the least desirable in that pile of music at the jumble-sale too. They'll still be there at close of sale, yet they might well be just what you need, and at the price they'll charge you only need to find one useful. I'll have the ones you don't want...

[shelly0312]

Oh yes, I think bassoon music may be just the ticket. Only problem is the excellent bassoon tutor I found makes me sad that I never did pursue that instrument. I have moderate bassoon envy. I do have 2nd and 3rd grade piano books and I agree they are a greeat music resource. I have used them already for just the treble clef for strong melody lines in classic music. Lots of moody sharp and/or flat accidentals that are fun. And I will go back to them when I am comfortable playing that lower clef to begin two handed playing. But right now I am just looking for something that carries a strong melody on that bass clef to make it more interesting while I try to strengthen my reading and fingering abilities in that foreign land. It has just been too many years since piano--and then playing EC with just the treble clef really did a mind wipe on me. bassoonbassoonbassoon thanks for more good pointers you guys! shelly

[asdormire]

I had to learn sight read the bass clef back when I was 12 as my voice had already changed, and I was definitely a bass, though I did do some sight reading of it a couplr years earlier on my ill fated piano lessons. Maybe trying to read a few voice lines for a bass would give you something simple to start with.

Alan

[shelly0312]

I wasn't familiar with the term "tenor extended down", but I just read GW's post, so I see it's what I would call a baritone-treble.

This is the description from Greg Jowaisas when I made enquires about this instrument:
I believe Geoff would classify Julies 'instrument as a tenor extended down as shown on page 4 of his 5 page treatise on english layouts. The basic treble is there but minus high notes. (-g# eb b and b flat on the left and c and a on the right) The low notes continue the treble pattern down into the baritone range. No transposition. I do not have a clear memory of layout in relation to the thumb strap position but I believe Geoff's representation of a 54/56 non transposed tenor extended down is correct for Julie's instrument.

So, I do not think it is quite a baritone-treble; but it seems to be a very servicable instrument. I am playing my entire EC repertoire on it just as quickly as on my little Lachenal. And I love the full bushings--lots less clatter.

[Larry Stout]

Another source from the Victorian concertina literature would be music written or arranged for Crane (Triumph) duet. The left hand part is written in bass clef. The salvation army tutor and the Bulstrode tutor (both available on line free, maybe in the right part of this web site, maybe on concertina.com) have sections devoted to learning how to read bass clef.

[JimLucas]

So, I do not think it is quite a baritone-treble; but it seems to be a very servicable instrument.

I'm pretty sure it is a "baritone treble". As the other Geoff (Wooff) mentioned, Wheatstone and Crabb apparently used different terminology for the same instrument, at least in this case. Nothing wrong with that.

Here is my own description (edited today to correct a couple of typos and add a little clarification) of the Wheatstone terminology as I understand it, garnered from old Wheatstone price lists, the Wheatstone ledgers, and various concertina "experts" over the years.

[Anglo-Irishman]

Another source from the Victorian concertina literature would be music written or arranged for Crane (Triumph) duet. The left hand part is written in bass clef. The salvation army tutor and the Bulstrode tutor (both available on line free, maybe in the right part of this web site, maybe on concertina.com) have sections devoted to learning how to read bass clef.

Speaking of sacred music: Any standard hymnal (choir edition) has four-part harmonies with the soprano and alto in the treble cleff and the tenor and bass in the bass clef. Styles range from Scottish psalm tunes through German chorale tunes to Victorian hymns, both cheerful and solemn, so there's lots of variety.

Cheers,
John

[Tootler]

Well, you guys are so helpful: here's another conundrum. I have a lovely "new" Wheatstone (what Greg describes as:) tenor extended down (TED). Its bass is another octave lower than a regular EC. I have been playing EC for about 2 years--and am finally pretty confident about reading music and doing fingerings on the fly in the treble clef. Now, I have a whole bass clef at my fingertips--but I can barely read this clef and complete flub the fingerings from one day to the next. I only have about 2 1/2 pages of bass clef practice pages and they get pretty boring. So what instrument reads off the bass clef most of its music line? What music book could I use that would have some interesting music lines mostly in the bass clef for me to really practice that whole lower octave and a half until I am as confident as with the other three higher ones in the treble clef?

I play bass recorder which is written in bass clef. When I was learning bass clef, I got a selection of traditional tunes and transposed them into bass clef (computer notation software useful here) and played them from the notation in bass clef. As I was already fairly familiar with most of the tunes, I could concentrate on the fingering of the instrument and associating with the position of the notes on the stave. Once I had done that, I bought a book of solos for bass recorder, most of which were arrangements of well known orchestral pieces. Once I was reasonably confident, I started playing bass with the recorder group I belong to. I'm sure a similar approach would work for your concertina.

[JimLucas]

IWhen I was learning bass clef, I got a selection of traditional tunes and transposed them into bass clef (computer notation software useful here) and played them from the notation in bass clef.

Transposition by computer can be useful, but it occurs to me that doing your own transposing from treble to bass clef "by hand" would also be a way to help you become comfortable with the bass clef.

[Geoff Wooff]

IWhen I was learning bass clef, I got a selection of traditional tunes and transposed them into bass clef (computer notation software useful here) and played them from the notation in bass clef.

Transposition by computer can be useful, but it occurs to me that doing your own transposing from treble to bass clef "by hand" would also be a way to help you become comfortable with the bass clef.

Exactly what I was going to suggest Jim !

The exersize of doing it by hand somehow in-beds the details in the brain... perhaps because it is a slower process and one has to think about each move.

I have made a Crib sheet that sits on the music stand for quick reference.

Edited by Geoff Wooff, 10 May 2012 - 07:27 AM.

[kevin toner]

In my experience, so far, Mingulay Boat Song and Air Falalalo are two Piano scores by Hugh S Roberton that's bass clef is very independent from [and not slavish to] the treble clef. In fact I'd go as far to say that Roberton reverses the roles of the clefs, on these 2, so that it is more the treble that is vamping the bass or harmonising the melody rather than vice versa. "MBS" is fully reachable on T-T. Those lines which are not reachable on your TED [which sounds like another name for what I've got (a T-T typically down to tenor C)] then you can use the computer program highlighted by Jim and Geoff to help bring good bass lines up to your range. It's something I might consider dabbling with myself later down the line if/when necessary!

I'm interested at the moment on the technique side with regard to playing both clefs of a piano score. I will be posting on my progress in a moment on a new thread here, as so far I've been using the general discussion forums to discuss such. 'Teaching and Learning' does seem to be the more appropriate place!

However, if I come across more good bass lines during my piano score learnings I'll post back to you here on this thread, but again I suspect they'll not be common. Perhaps look out for choral-master scores like Roberton's as there may be a greater inclination to lead melodies in the bass clef!

Edited by kevin toner, 13 May 2012 - 04:40 AM.

[shelly0312]

I'm pretty sure it is a "baritone treble". As the other Geoff (Wooff) mentioned, Wheatstone and Crabb apparently used different terminology for the same instrument, at least in this case. Nothing wrong with that. Here is my own description (edited today to correct a couple of typos and add a little clarification) of the Wheatstone terminology as I understand it, garnered from old Wheatstone price lists, the Wheatstone ledgers, and various concertina "experts" over the years.

Jim, I finally took the time to link back and read your EC "voices" descriptions, and find them perfectly scholarly! Thank-you so much. I actually printed a hard copy and saved one into documents...