14 replies to this topic

[Andy Holder]

I'm cleaning up a rather nice ebonised and silver Lachenal English. It looks rather stylish as it's just black & silver. However, the buttons are reasonably worn, as are the finger rests. Is there a quick 'n easy way of re-plating the buttons? I'm guessing they are nickel plated on brass.

The construction is interesting, they have a solid cap and, I assume, a hollow shaft. Does anyone know why they were made like this? Also, what is the tiny hole about half way along for?



Andrew

[Theo]

In my experience they were not plated, just polished nickel silver. The brassy coloured patches on your photo I suspect are just tarnishing of the nickel silver. I've always assumed they were made hollow to save money. The hole in the side is a vent to allow for expansion of the air inside while the cap is soldered in place

Edited by Theo, 15 April 2012 - 06:56 AM.

[Andy Holder]

In my experience they were not plated, just polished nickel silver. The brassy coloured patches on your photo I suspect are just tarnishing of the nickel silver. I've always assumed they were made hollow to save money. The hole in the side is a vent to allow for expansion of the air inside while the cap is soldered in place

Thanks Leo. In that case, should it be possible to polish them back to life?
Andrew

[Theo]

I can understand how my name can be misheard as "Leo" but I'm completely baffled as to how it can happen in print?

[Andy Holder]

I can understand how my name can be misheard as "Leo" but I'm completely baffled as to how it can happen in print?

I'm very sorry Theo, I was having a mental block. We've just had a French exchange student called Leo staying with us for a week!
Andrew

[Geoff Wooff]

The caps, I think, in most cases are actually Silver. Perhaps the hollow shaft is for locating both the end cap and the locating pin at the base end which if made of seperate round stock will save quite a lot of material.
Geoff.

[Geoffrey Crabb]

To expand on comments by Geoff W and Theo, hope they do not mind

Basic nickel barrels, with either silver or higher content nickel tops.
However, hollow to save weight. The total weight of 48 or 56 solid Nickel buttons would be excessive and this construction method brought the weight in line with Wheatstones capped buttons. The buttons were made as normal solid ones (integral pins), then top section bored out to just above the cross drilling for the lever.

Theo is correct, without the vent hole it is almost impossible seat the tops effectively due to internal air expansion whilst heating during soldering.

It was not unusual, 'in the old days' to come across instruments where these buttons had been filled with solid solder, the caps having been nicked recycled by some of the more unscrupulous or whilst in the care of pawn shops.

Geoff

[Andy Holder]

The caps, I think, in most cases are actually Silver. Perhaps the hollow shaft is for locating both the end cap and the locating pin at the base end which if made of seperate round stock will save quite a lot of material.
Geoff.

Thanks Geoff, that's interesting. I have, since I first posted, tried polishing fairly hard with silver polish and they have come up beautifully, so they are definitely not plated.
I used to turn bits of silver for medical sensors, the high purity stuff is horrible to work on a lathe.
Andrew

[Andy Holder]

To expand on comments by Geoff W and Theo, hope they do not mind

Basic nickel barrels, with either silver or higher content nickel tops.
However, hollow to save weight. The total weight of 48 or 56 solid Nickel buttons would be excessive and this construction method brought the weight in line with Wheatstones capped buttons. The buttons were made as normal solid ones (integral pins), then top section bored out to just above the cross drilling for the lever.

Theo is correct, without the vent hole it is almost impossible seat the tops effectively due to internal air expansion whilst heating during soldering.

It was not unusual, 'in the old days' to come across instruments where these buttons had been filled with solid solder, the caps having been nicked recycled by some of the more unscrupulous or whilst in the care of pawn shops.

Geoff

Thank you for that very comprehensive reply Geoffrey. I wondered if it was for the weight.

I worked out that:
Assuming hollow is 2.5 dia x 10mm long, that's approx. 49 mm^3 per button.
48 buttons = 2352 mm^3 or 2.35 cm^3
Nickel is about 8.9g per cm^3
Total weight saving roughly 20 grams (unless I've made a big error somewhere). Less than an ounce in old money!

I'm not doubting for a moment, but it seems like a lot of trouble to save such a small amount.

Do you mind me asking what method you use for making metal buttons?

Thanks
Andrew

[Geoffrey Crabb]

Thank you for that very comprehensive reply Geoffrey. I wondered if it was for the weight.

I worked out that:
Assuming hollow is 2.5 dia x 10mm long, that's approx. 49 mm^3 per button.
48 buttons = 2352 mm^3 or 2.35 cm^3
Nickel is about 8.9g per cm^3
Total weight saving roughly 20 grams (unless I've made a big error somewhere). Less than an ounce in old money!

I'm not doubting for a moment, but it seems like a lot of trouble to save such a small amount.

Do you mind me asking what method you use for making metal buttons?

Thanks
Andrew

Hi Andrew
Never having actually weighed different buttons, it does seem that when holding 48 solid nickel buttons in one hand and 48 hollow capped buttons in the other there appears to be a considerable difference but if your calculations are correct, I quite agree that it was a waste of time and effort but I suppose if in competition with another maker anything went.

Carrying on the Crabb tradition for solid buttons, if required to make them I have an original (1860) special lathe designed for manual button and end bolt production. The lathe produces a basic button with pin. Each button is then cross drilled from one side in a jig using a centre-drill bit. This drills the lever hole and forms one countersink. The button is rotated through 180 degres and the bit passed though the hole and the opposing countersink formed. From circa 1950 Duralium was adopted for buttons on Crabb instruments. Although sometimes complained of for blackening fingers I still use this as it makes a considerable difference in weight to an instrument as this seems to be a criteria set by new players.

Geoffrey. (I have not gone posh but this might avoid confusion with Geoff W )

PS. Nickel buttons with Silver caps if left untouched, barrel may yellow and cap will blacken.

[Geoff Wooff]

[quote name='Geoffrey Crabb'


Geoffrey. (I have not gone posh but this might avoid confusion with Geoff W )


Thanks for that Geoffrey.
I was allways Geoffrey to my mother but if one were to google Geoffrey Wooff not very much on me will come up. If the same search is done with Geoff Wooff then one might get "too much information"... so I'll stick with Geoff.

best regards,
Geoff.

[Andy Holder]

Thank you for that very comprehensive reply Geoffrey. I wondered if it was for the weight.

I worked out that:
Assuming hollow is 2.5 dia x 10mm long, that's approx. 49 mm^3 per button.
48 buttons = 2352 mm^3 or 2.35 cm^3
Nickel is about 8.9g per cm^3
Total weight saving roughly 20 grams (unless I've made a big error somewhere). Less than an ounce in old money!

I'm not doubting for a moment, but it seems like a lot of trouble to save such a small amount.

Do you mind me asking what method you use for making metal buttons?

Thanks
Andrew

Hi Andrew
Never having actually weighed different buttons, it does seem that when holding 48 solid nickel buttons in one hand and 48 hollow capped buttons in the other there appears to be a considerable difference but if your calculations are correct, I quite agree that it was a waste of time and effort but I suppose if in competition with another maker anything went.

Carrying on the Crabb tradition for solid buttons, if required to make them I have an original (1860) special lathe designed for manual button and end bolt production. The lathe produces a basic button with pin. Each button is then cross drilled from one side in a jig using a centre-drill bit. This drills the lever hole and forms one countersink. The button is rotated through 180 degres and the bit passed though the hole and the opposing countersink formed. From circa 1950 Duralium was adopted for buttons on Crabb instruments. Although sometimes complained of for blackening fingers I still use this as it makes a considerable difference in weight to an instrument as this seems to be a criteria set by new players.

Geoffrey. (I have not gone posh but this might avoid confusion with Geoff W )

PS. Nickel buttons with Silver caps if left untouched, barrel may yellow and cap will blacken.

Geoffrey, thanks. I admit the maths does make it seem a bit odd, intuitively I would have said there's a lot to be saved. It does sound like you have some marvellous equipment, I'm still struggling to find a proper workshop, let alone tools that don't have to be moved all the time! Thanks for your very knowledgable input.
Andrew.

Edited by Andy Holder, 17 April 2012 - 03:05 AM.

[Chris Ghent]

Some time ago Richard Evans and I collected a bunch of buttons and weighed them. It will come as no surprise Jeffries buttons were the heaviest, and in order getting lighter, Lachenal hollow metal, Lachenal wood shaft with metal cap, and lightest of all by a considerable margin, Wheatstone. I think Jurgen Suttner's buttons with their plastic shaft and thin metal cap would be as light, and probably the Dippers also. The titanium buttons I use, copied from Richard, were similar to Lachenal wood shafts, and I imagine Crabb durals would be much the same.

If you are on a mission to save weight an approach is to look at every part and decide how much substance you can take from it without compromising its integrity. The buttons would be part of this, and the hollow shafts are a good method, though time consuming. The thing to remember is the designers dictum; strong, light, cheap: choose two...

Chris

Edited by Chris Ghent, 17 April 2012 - 09:45 AM.

[Greg Jowaisas]

Along with saving weight overall there might be a button response effect as well concerning individual button weight.

My evidence is anecdotal but I have a graphic memory of initially playing a B/F# 28b Jeffries with solid (stainless) buttons with a 4.8mm diameter. The instrument was pleasant sounding but unremarkable in response. The buttons bothered me and seemed unnecessarilly heavy.
I finally decided they were recent replacements. I was able to locate Jeffries dimension bone buttons (very smooth; perhaps ivory?) Once installed the difference without changing springs or bushings was notable. Playing now was more like dancing in slippers than trudging home in work boots.

Again anecdotal, but I believe the sound improved as well.

Greg

[RP3]

Yes, Greg. Those bone buttons make all the difference. It plays like the thoroughbred that it is.

Ross Schlabach.