Jump to content


Photo

Triple Time Hornpipes


  • Please log in to reply
17 replies to this topic

#1 michael sam wild

michael sam wild

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2638 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Shireoaks, Notts, UK

Posted 31 March 2012 - 05:33 AM

Following my comment about the tunes in Benjamin's Book and the apparent absence of triple time hornpipes from 1820 on.. Here's a good article by Pete Stewart, bagpiper , who is an expert on these old hornpipes ( 3/2 etc). Pete played with the Goodacre brothers and is a fine fiddler too. We got into these in the 80s after John Offord 's book 'John of the Green' came out and played them in our Sheffield band but no callers had revived any good dances then! Some of the step and clogdancxers made a go of them.

http://dl.dropbox.co...-Hornpipe-1.pdf


I like the comment that the players worked around bass lines pricked out on paper and then improvissed their parts and descants . Much in the way jazz players etc work round chord sequebnces.


I think it is a shame we stick to the 'tyranny of the dots' Some people in sessions get thrown by a shift or harmony and the obsession with changing every three times through in a set works against exploration of variation and the potential of tunes.


I'd like to hear of any liberated sessions in that spirit.

Edited by michael sam wild, 31 March 2012 - 05:40 AM.


#2 Steve_freereeder

Steve_freereeder

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 262 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:South Yorkshire, England

Posted 31 March 2012 - 07:26 AM

Very good and thought-provoking article, Mike. Thanks for posting.
I am especially interested in the idea that a tune such as Old Lancashire Hornpipe was (and could still be today) played as a jig. It makes much more sense of the 6/4 time signature frequently found in these old manuscripts.

I echo your thoughts about moving away from the tyranny of the dots and playing tunes in sessions more than three times through, in order to explore the nuances and intricacies of the basic tune. Unfortunately some people can't or won't play a tune in any other form other than that which they originally learnt it. Posted Image
Let me know if you find a session where exploring a tune in this way doesn't cause consternation, raised eyebrows, and somehow the implication that to do so is to 'play it wrong'.

#3 Steve_freereeder

Steve_freereeder

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 262 posts
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Location:South Yorkshire, England

Posted 31 March 2012 - 07:31 AM

Further to my last...

Actually one of the joys of playing a tune like Old Lancashire is that you can experiment with the emphasis and stresses in the tune, sometimes having two stresses in a bar ('jig' rhythm) or three stresses ('triple-time hornpipe' rhythm), mixing them up at will and how the fancy takes you. These old TTHs are wonderful! Posted Image

#4 Steve Mansfield

Steve Mansfield

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 538 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Whaley Bridge, Derbyshire

Posted 31 March 2012 - 11:05 AM

That's a really interesting article Mike, thanks. What's the context of the article, it reads like an introduction to a book from the comment about three collections of 145 tunes in the opening paragraph?

[Edited for grammar]

Edited by Steve Mansfield, 31 March 2012 - 11:11 AM.


#5 michael sam wild

michael sam wild

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2638 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Shireoaks, Notts, UK

Posted 01 April 2012 - 05:08 AM

Thanks Steve x 2
SM ,The article was in Pete's book
http://www.hornpipem...uk/3xcolls.html

An excellent publication, Pete lives near Edinburgh now and is actibve with small pipes research

SD, we used to like switching in a marathon Strip the Willow based around a theme like Drops of Brandy or The Keel Row played in various time signatures, working on the princiole that older fiddlers etc would possible have a more limited local repertoire
and would play on and on (if accounts of all nighters and lots of booze are anything to go on . The toffs would be a bit more reserved and maybe the collections were for more formally played and accurately learned dances. The pictures you see of fairs and pub scenes etc indicate a lot of stepping, showing off and ribaldry after a hard working day or week.

I hope we can hear about interesting sessions. John Kirkpatrick used to advocate playing repeats and variations to the sate of hypnotic trance. A bit Sufi or Dervish like .

Edited by michael sam wild, 01 April 2012 - 05:11 AM.


#6 michael sam wild

michael sam wild

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2638 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Shireoaks, Notts, UK

Posted 01 April 2012 - 05:19 AM

Here's another seminal article by Paul Davenport of Hallamshire Traditions , as a traditional musician and innovative music teacher ( now retired) Paul was frustrated by the lack of understanding of tradition amongst the musical cognocenti.

http://www.hallamtra...es/Hornpipe.pdf

#7 Geoff Wooff

Geoff Wooff

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1561 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:France

Posted 01 April 2012 - 09:38 AM

All facinating stuff and thanks Michael for pointing these articles out.

One thought however that comes to mind, as I am thinking about how I might approach playing these 3/2 hornpipes off the sheet music, is; how would Irish Traditional Music sound today if it had been a lost musical form other than the music collected on paper? If all the old players had died out before the invention of sound recording equipment and the current, or a future, revival was based on written descriptions of the music and dances.

All the subtle nuances of a musical genre are somewhat fragile and quite easily lost to the page of staff notation. It makes us realise just how much we owe to luck and the sharing /giving qualities of the old players.

#8 marshall

marshall

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 72 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:North Yorkshire, UK

Posted 03 April 2012 - 04:04 AM

You are both in Sheffield - why not start your own tune exploration session? Or even see if you could host something similar during BTMW in July. Chas


Very good and thought-provoking article, Mike. Thanks for posting.
I am especially interested in the idea that a tune such as Old Lancashire Hornpipe was (and could still be today) played as a jig. It makes much more sense of the 6/4 time signature frequently found in these old manuscripts.

I echo your thoughts about moving away from the tyranny of the dots and playing tunes in sessions more than three times through, in order to explore the nuances and intricacies of the basic tune. Unfortunately some people can't or won't play a tune in any other form other than that which they originally learnt it. Posted Image
Let me know if you find a session where exploring a tune in this way doesn't cause consternation, raised eyebrows, and somehow the implication that to do so is to 'play it wrong'.



#9 michael sam wild

michael sam wild

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2638 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Shireoaks, Notts, UK

Posted 03 April 2012 - 10:17 AM

Geoff, I suppose we would find the oldest recordings on wax cylinders etc ,listen to songs nursery rhyme tunes etc, look at pictures of dancers, musicians and their instrumenst and read accounts of dances, look at musicians original tune books and then get sessions going with some good dancers in a well oiled situation. The early music movement did some of those things

bands like Old Swann and the English Country Music movement did similar in the 1970s. Mind they were looking mainly at Southern English music and maybe ignored the fact that in the North East , The Lakes and Yorkshire Dales things still hung on in village hops just as they did in Ireland.

3/2 etc featured in the excellent Northumbrian Pipers Tune Books and we had pipers like Billy Pigg around still to be inspired by

One instrument I intend to get hold of is a Cornpip or Stock and Horn.(Robert Burns had one) to see how the instrument and its capabilities may have shaped some of the tunes . As a piper you may have some ideas.

#10 Geoff Wooff

Geoff Wooff

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1561 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:France

Posted 04 April 2012 - 04:35 AM

Geoff, I suppose we would find the oldest recordings on wax cylinders etc ,listen to songs nursery rhyme tunes etc, look at pictures of dancers, musicians and their instrumenst and read accounts of dances, look at musicians original tune books and then get sessions going with some good dancers in a well oiled situation. The early music movement did some of those things

bands like Old Swann and the English Country Music movement did similar in the 1970s. Mind they were looking mainly at Southern English music and maybe ignored the fact that in the North East , The Lakes and Yorkshire Dales things still hung on in village hops just as they did in Ireland.

3/2 etc featured in the excellent Northumbrian Pipers Tune Books and we had pipers like Billy Pigg around still to be inspired by

One instrument I intend to get hold of is a Cornpip or Stock and Horn.(Robert Burns had one) to see how the instrument and its capabilities may have shaped some of the tunes . As a piper you may have some ideas.




Regarding the researches in the early 1970's.. I recall one incident which happened in a Pub one lunchtime, near Cecil Sharp House... I was having a pint with the man who ran the Book/record shop in C# house. Also in the pub was Ashley Hutchins who talked about some old people that he had collected information from about Molly Dancing. He demonstrated the steps and the semi crouched standing position... to which someone asked was the bent stance due to the age of the informants or was it THE way it had been done originally.

Thanks for the tip about the Northumbrian Pipers books.. I had a look through and found a couple of these 3/2's... I am just wondering how this time signature, that apparently was originally imported (or some tunes of a very similar type) from France might have a relationship to the Three time Bourée.

The Cornpip (or Pibcorn); well I agree entirely with the idea of finding the most ancient of instruments that a musical tradition could have been shaped by. I did the same with ITM... was playing it on the EC and not very satifactorily... then took up the Uilleann pipes in its pre- Famine version and listened to NOTHING but the best players of my parents generation
(Clancy, Ennis, Reck etc.) for five years.. I even had the oportunity on two or three occasions to play the pipes with Tommy Reck..... Then I picked up the EC again when I moved to Co. Clare and had plenty of chances to play with the old generation of musicians... it rubbed off eventually...

Where you might get a Cornpip I do not know.

Cheers,
Geoff.

#11 Steve Mansfield

Steve Mansfield

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 538 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Whaley Bridge, Derbyshire

Posted 05 April 2012 - 11:42 AM

SM ,The article was in Pete's book
http://www.hornpipem...uk/3xcolls.html

An excellent publication, Pete lives near Edinburgh now and is actibve with small pipes research


I liked the appendix so much, I finally got around to buying the book.

It only arrived today so I've only had a preliminary skim and played a couple of tunes on the flute (including a nice version of one of my favourite tunes, Jack The Hare Courser): but first impressions are excellent. It's a really well produced and laid-out book with very readable dots, the annotations look informative, and it looks like there's some really cracking unusual tunes in there.

#12 tallship

tallship

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1703 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kent, UK

Posted 05 April 2012 - 01:18 PM

It only arrived today so I've only had a preliminary skim and played a couple of tunes on the flute (including a nice version of one of my favourite tunes, Jack The Hare Courser): but first impressions are excellent. It's a really well produced and laid-out book with very readable dots, the annotations look informative, and it looks like there's some really cracking unusual tunes in there.


My copy arrived yesterday along with two other tune books, I'll always be poor at this rate!

#13 michael sam wild

michael sam wild

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2638 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Shireoaks, Notts, UK

Posted 12 April 2012 - 08:54 AM

Here's another link to a recent article by Pete. . This is about the bagpipes and it would be interesting to know more about the Irish pipes seeing the effect they have had on Anglo Concertina playing over the years.

http://dl.dropbox.co...mon bagpipe.pdf

#14 Geoff Wooff

Geoff Wooff

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1561 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:France

Posted 12 April 2012 - 10:39 AM

Wow! Thanks for that link Michael. I find this most interesting as it shows a good clear link to the early Irish (Uilleann or Union) pipes. The one thing about the earliest instruments that have been found with 'two Octave' capability chanters( circa 1760 it is thought) similar or the same as the later Uilleann pipes of the first half of the 19th century, is that the drones are allways very loud, in fact too loud for that type of chanter. This suggests that the drones were originally made to accompany an open ended chanter of greater power... like the Border (lowland) pipes.

The period of transition between the Lowland pipes, the Pastoral pipes and the Uilleann pipes is a time that remains to be researched properly.Some confusions exist as in the repertoire of people like Piper Walter Jackson ( 1770's), who made many tunes still current in the Irish tradition, because these tunes would appear to be designed with the two octave chanter in mind but it is known that Jackson also played the fiddle. It could also be that Jackson was not a piper but a fiddler because in some areas of Ireland, up untill recent times ( living memory) any musician was called a "piper". This last point suggests that Pipers were very common at one time.

Edited by Geoff Wooff, 12 April 2012 - 10:41 AM.


#15 michael sam wild

michael sam wild

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2638 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Shireoaks, Notts, UK

Posted 13 April 2012 - 05:18 AM

I thought you'd find it interesting Geoff. I'll let Pete know of your interest. He is very involved in the lowland piping scene . I've always felt a 'simpler' instrument must have preceded the uillean pipes . The Irish Companion to Music ( new version ed. Valelly) doesn't go much into the precursors and I'd love to explore the way that piopers interacted across all the British Isles and Ireland.

#16 Geoff Wooff

Geoff Wooff

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1561 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:France

Posted 13 April 2012 - 06:08 AM

There is a general opinion amongst the Uilleann pipers in Ireland that the instrument was invented there, or was dropped there from the heavens and that it bears no relationship to any other type of instrument. Which is utter Tosh in my opinion.

It is probable that the Romans first brought bagpipes to the British Isles, they were known to have pipes of some sort. The Sardinians have been making reed/tube instruments for at least 3000 years (according to them) and at one time if Bagpipes were mentioned anywhere on mainland europe people imediately thought of the Italians (not the Scots) who would play at street markets especially at Christmas time all over the continent.

The first 'two octave' chanters were developed from the older form (the Border or lowland pipes) by someone who ,perhaps, was trying to take the bore shape of the Oboe with the idea of extending the range. The Oboe was ,in a similar way, devised from the Shawm by the Hotteterre family, who were bagpipers and instrument makers working for Louis the 14th. This new Oboe was coming into popular use during the 1700's.

My current, highly controversial, theory is that one of the Reid family from the Newcastle-upon-tyne area ,who were umbrella makers and famed for their Northumbrian pipe making, had perhaps traveled to Paris to study 'Parasol' making and came back with some new ideas about bagpipes... cannot prove any of this... but the Uilleann pipes certainly did not drop out of the sky.

Also interesting to note that the Northumbrian pipes most probably were developed from the French Musette de Cour.. a bellows blown bagpipe that was also invented, we think, by the Hoteterre family who also devised the Transverse Flute!

France currently has more different types of Bagpipes than any other country, I think.

Thaks again Michael,
Geoff.

Edited by Geoff Wooff, 13 April 2012 - 06:26 AM.


#17 michael sam wild

michael sam wild

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2638 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Shireoaks, Notts, UK

Posted 13 April 2012 - 11:57 AM

I have wondered how ordinary folk could afford such highly crafted sets of pipes and assumed, as with concert flutes and Jeffries and Wheatstone concertinas, they passed down as they fell from favour with the richer people. I did read on Wikipedia that the Anglo Protestant 'gentleman pipers' and even rectors played the uillean pipes at first.

As Noel Hill has said he draws strongly on the pipes I think this thread is relevant on conc.net

Edited by michael sam wild, 13 April 2012 - 11:58 AM.


#18 michael sam wild

michael sam wild

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2638 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Shireoaks, Notts, UK

Posted 30 May 2012 - 03:05 AM

This came from ITMA may be useful

http://www.itma.ie/a...about-the-itma/




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users