David,
I would love the hear just the concertina playing these tunes - solo - rather than with the fiddle. I would also like to hear the tunes played slowly so that I could hear what the concertina is doing a bit more clearly. I'd love to hear what you have to say about playing the tricky fiddle tunes.
Thanks...
Forbidden Territory
Started by
David Levine
, Mar 27 2012 04:35 AM
48 replies to this topic
#20
David Levine
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Posted 11 April 2012 - 04:49 AM
Yes, the low tunes are lovely and challenging. McGlinchey’s HP (Across the Fecne) is a great tune for developing the little finger. And while Bertram’s suggestion is certainly interesting, I just don’t see how it could be applied to a tune like Lads of Laoise. Perhaps we could just focus on that tune for a bit.
I play the low A with my little finger, 4, on the G row. I don’t see how else to do it without chopping. To play it as Bertram suggested would mean a jump, or chop, to use the 3rd row A (press) with the index finger. Do I read him correctly? It would certainly be easier to use the stronger fingers – 1,2,3 -- for the low notes (because the little finger is weak) but the transition from the shift back to default fingering would be awkward at a brisk reel tempo.
I posted at video of me playing the tune on Youtube so that we’d have a common reference. The link is http://youtu.be/N58_v7enpiU
It seems to me that there is no trick involved in playing such tunes. One must just keep at it until the little finger is sufficiently strong and responsive to play in the lower octave.
I play the low A with my little finger, 4, on the G row. I don’t see how else to do it without chopping. To play it as Bertram suggested would mean a jump, or chop, to use the 3rd row A (press) with the index finger. Do I read him correctly? It would certainly be easier to use the stronger fingers – 1,2,3 -- for the low notes (because the little finger is weak) but the transition from the shift back to default fingering would be awkward at a brisk reel tempo.
I posted at video of me playing the tune on Youtube so that we’d have a common reference. The link is http://youtu.be/N58_v7enpiU
It seems to me that there is no trick involved in playing such tunes. One must just keep at it until the little finger is sufficiently strong and responsive to play in the lower octave.
#21
BertramLevy
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Posted 11 April 2012 - 10:20 AM
Yes, the low tunes are lovely and challenging. McGlinchey’s HP (Across the Fecne) is a great tune for developing the little finger. And while Bertram’s suggestion is certainly interesting, I just don’t see how it could be applied to a tune like Lads of Laoise. Perhaps we could just focus on that tune for a bit.
I play the low A with my little finger, 4, on the G row. I don’t see how else to do it without chopping. To play it as Bertram suggested would mean a jump, or chop, to use the 3rd row A (press) with the index finger. Do I read him correctly? It would certainly be easier to use the stronger fingers – 1,2,3 -- for the low notes (because the little finger is weak) but the transition from the shift back to default fingering would be awkward at a brisk reel tempo.
I posted at video of me playing the tune on Youtube so that we’d have a common reference. The link is http://youtu.be/N58_v7enpiU
It seems to me that there is no trick involved in playing such tunes. One must just keep at it until the little finger is sufficiently strong and responsive to play in the lower octave.
Hi David I found the tune on your Youtube. I could do a better job if I had the written music but here is a rough sketch. There are many ways to play this tune but here is suggestion ( absent the ornamentation) Index is 2 middle is 3 ring is 4 and pinkie is 5
The first figure E B E starts with the index finger (2) not the third middle) the B can be played on the G row in the same direction or C row in the opening using the ring finger (4th finger). then back the E Here the first phrase has a slight axis shift so the hand is centered toward the lower notes. The G F# G (or maybe G F# E G- cant tell) that follows are all played on the G Row (in out in)
Now we come to the trouble phrase D A D F# D A D This is all played on the G row in out in out in with fingers 3,4,3,3,3,4 Alternatively it could be played with the D and A in the close direction (ROw III D ROw I A ROw III D F# D ) you could use a combination of the 2 Ds on the ROw II and III if you want to pair the D and F#. The combinations are endless.
If you want to repeat the low As such as in a triplet the first A is not played on the G row with the 4th but rather played on the top row A button L2 on the close with finger 323
As I said I could do a better job with the written music but this is the idea. In this axis shift the little finger is avoided. However the problem is not the little finger but the repetitive motion of 4 5 4 which is inhibited by the intrinsic muscles of the hand that bind 4 and 5 together.
Bertram
PS it was nice to get to know you in our Email conversation
#22
ceemonster
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Posted 11 April 2012 - 11:11 PM
[do you feel, as I do, that it is a little strange that not many people are doing this ? After all the concertina has the range]
i wager that if you walked the AC path for long enough to be at a point of assaying such tunes, you would rapidly understand the aversion. it isn't that it "can't" be done. it is that it feels and sounds labored and ham-fisted. the notes are situated awkwardly such that, although there IS a "g" in each direction, and same for the low "a," you can't fully avail yourself of the bidirectional choices. or even to just, play the tune, to the full. particularly once you are in the realm of "notey" tunes as opposed to polkas, slides, and the less-notey simple-and-square dance tunes. particularly if you are playing at high, fiery speeds (and let's not hear from the peanut gallery....we know speed isn't everything. but there are times when it is something.....
)
if i want to play a paddy fahy or sean ryan with low-note presence at a lovely breda keville speed using these low notes, i can handle it more or less decently. if i want to play it like a fiery wind a la the kanes, that is another matter. coincidentally i too have been playing "LofL" lately, and also been a-playing "abbey leix" and some of the other composed stuff out of e.galway/tipperary. and i am not enjoying how the low notes in these tunes express on ac. i don't like how it feels and i really, really don't like how it phrases emotionally. but i love how it sounds on CBA. and i bet i'd love how it sounded on EC. to my surprise, i even find the low notes as well as the "black keys" sounding and playing better on bisonoric two-row b/c accordion than on ac, not that i could say why.
this issue, along with similar disillutionment at the expressive limitations with playing in the "black-key" keys on c/g AC, has me viewing ac with kind of a jaundiced eye of late. [what's that, you say? i can get a second concertina for seven to 14 grand and lug two around together? er.....] i still think it is enchanting what the ac will do for its size and dimensions---that is, at a certain price. but over a certain price, cba and ec will give you much, much more return in terms of musical capacity and versatility, for much, much less dosh.
it isn't just dosh. the bisonoric instruments have a huge learning curve in terms of time investment. learning where the ntoes are isn't a big deal. it's investing the practice time to get them burned into the brain pathways so you can use all your options fluidly. that is a big curve. and at the end of it, in the above-mentioned price range, what do you get? there are keys you can't play in with full expressive command or expressive choice (hell, there are keys you effectively can't play much in, period), and there is this biz with the low notes. cba gives you far wider musical horizons for much less money. and i suspect that ec gives you more. there is a swap-out in terms of that "authentic push-pull" or "one-row" articulation. but flute, pipes, and whistle manage just fine without that.....it's really been food for thought. i'm not sure where i stand right now about this. i think where i'm getting to is, ac is a delightful.....secondary instrument to a primary that will do much more.
i wager that if you walked the AC path for long enough to be at a point of assaying such tunes, you would rapidly understand the aversion. it isn't that it "can't" be done. it is that it feels and sounds labored and ham-fisted. the notes are situated awkwardly such that, although there IS a "g" in each direction, and same for the low "a," you can't fully avail yourself of the bidirectional choices. or even to just, play the tune, to the full. particularly once you are in the realm of "notey" tunes as opposed to polkas, slides, and the less-notey simple-and-square dance tunes. particularly if you are playing at high, fiery speeds (and let's not hear from the peanut gallery....we know speed isn't everything. but there are times when it is something.....
) if i want to play a paddy fahy or sean ryan with low-note presence at a lovely breda keville speed using these low notes, i can handle it more or less decently. if i want to play it like a fiery wind a la the kanes, that is another matter. coincidentally i too have been playing "LofL" lately, and also been a-playing "abbey leix" and some of the other composed stuff out of e.galway/tipperary. and i am not enjoying how the low notes in these tunes express on ac. i don't like how it feels and i really, really don't like how it phrases emotionally. but i love how it sounds on CBA. and i bet i'd love how it sounded on EC. to my surprise, i even find the low notes as well as the "black keys" sounding and playing better on bisonoric two-row b/c accordion than on ac, not that i could say why.
this issue, along with similar disillutionment at the expressive limitations with playing in the "black-key" keys on c/g AC, has me viewing ac with kind of a jaundiced eye of late. [what's that, you say? i can get a second concertina for seven to 14 grand and lug two around together? er.....] i still think it is enchanting what the ac will do for its size and dimensions---that is, at a certain price. but over a certain price, cba and ec will give you much, much more return in terms of musical capacity and versatility, for much, much less dosh.
it isn't just dosh. the bisonoric instruments have a huge learning curve in terms of time investment. learning where the ntoes are isn't a big deal. it's investing the practice time to get them burned into the brain pathways so you can use all your options fluidly. that is a big curve. and at the end of it, in the above-mentioned price range, what do you get? there are keys you can't play in with full expressive command or expressive choice (hell, there are keys you effectively can't play much in, period), and there is this biz with the low notes. cba gives you far wider musical horizons for much less money. and i suspect that ec gives you more. there is a swap-out in terms of that "authentic push-pull" or "one-row" articulation. but flute, pipes, and whistle manage just fine without that.....it's really been food for thought. i'm not sure where i stand right now about this. i think where i'm getting to is, ac is a delightful.....secondary instrument to a primary that will do much more.
Edited by ceemonster, 11 April 2012 - 11:14 PM.
#23
David Levine
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Posted 12 April 2012 - 02:24 AM
cba gives you far wider musical horizons for much less money.
You seem to be on the wrong forum and in the wrong thread. This isn't about which instrument is easier. It is about how do do something on a chosen instrument.
I don't need anybody to tell me that it's difficult to play some tunes on the AC. I want somebody to help me understand how better to play these tricky tunes.
What is it that you don't get about this?
#24
GaryD
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Posted 12 April 2012 - 07:41 AM
Not sure if this was posted in the video section before but here
is video of Road To Garrison played on Anglo:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=zLcol_nIKao
is video of Road To Garrison played on Anglo:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=zLcol_nIKao
#25
ceemonster
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Posted 12 April 2012 - 05:43 PM
[What is it that you don't get about this?] what is it you don't get about the fact that my post was answering and ruminating in response to a query on this thread (as is done on this site constantly) regarding whether it is odd that many ac players including very able and expert ones, avoid these tunes?
more importantly, and not for the first time, what is it you seem unable to get about basic civilised manner of address? you would be one of the last posters on this site one would associate with adhering strictly and only to replies to an OP, and one of the last associated with keeping your input polite, unlike mine here.
more importantly, and not for the first time, what is it you seem unable to get about basic civilised manner of address? you would be one of the last posters on this site one would associate with adhering strictly and only to replies to an OP, and one of the last associated with keeping your input polite, unlike mine here.
#27
ceemonster
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Posted 13 April 2012 - 02:53 PM
since it seems important to you that your query is addressed, my input is a generalized version of what i assume (perhaps wrongly) mr. L's map-out may be a fine example of, which i don't want to look at until i have it and my concertina in the same time/space continuum so that i can have the fun of checking out how what i already do compares/contrasts....
viz. managing these low notes involves becoming adept at using both directions of the same low note (that goes for the "a," the "b," and the "g,") with automatic facility not only in the same tune, but often within just a couple/few notes of each other, swapping them out in the wink of an eye depending on what works best in the phrasing and swing of the individual tune given your choices, which as i said are not as full as they ought to be, due to the awkward placement of the low notes. but there will be superior choices that work better given what melody notes are preceding/following, and pinky involvement is somewhat but not wholly minimizable. i sometimes miss a cool option for a couple of weeks or so past when i think i've seen every option there is because the rubik's cube thing is not my forte. but the bell does eventually ring. once you iron out the switch-offs that flow best, stick to them and don't change your fingering. if you can't tweak the low note out of a tough point in the tune, tweak other melody notes or ornaments to make low-note pathways smoother. keep a list of low-note cans of worms, and open the cans and play with the worms regularly. finally, do like the masters. don't put them on your CD, and don't do them in concert....
the version of "first month of summer" in A-Major-ish which is paired with LofL in that famous andy mcgann solo fiddle set is another good one for playing patty-cake with the low "a's," as is, i mentioned, "the abbey leix." also, "tam lin." there is "g" action to be had in "the steeplechase."
viz. managing these low notes involves becoming adept at using both directions of the same low note (that goes for the "a," the "b," and the "g,") with automatic facility not only in the same tune, but often within just a couple/few notes of each other, swapping them out in the wink of an eye depending on what works best in the phrasing and swing of the individual tune given your choices, which as i said are not as full as they ought to be, due to the awkward placement of the low notes. but there will be superior choices that work better given what melody notes are preceding/following, and pinky involvement is somewhat but not wholly minimizable. i sometimes miss a cool option for a couple of weeks or so past when i think i've seen every option there is because the rubik's cube thing is not my forte. but the bell does eventually ring. once you iron out the switch-offs that flow best, stick to them and don't change your fingering. if you can't tweak the low note out of a tough point in the tune, tweak other melody notes or ornaments to make low-note pathways smoother. keep a list of low-note cans of worms, and open the cans and play with the worms regularly. finally, do like the masters. don't put them on your CD, and don't do them in concert....
the version of "first month of summer" in A-Major-ish which is paired with LofL in that famous andy mcgann solo fiddle set is another good one for playing patty-cake with the low "a's," as is, i mentioned, "the abbey leix." also, "tam lin." there is "g" action to be had in "the steeplechase."
Edited by ceemonster, 13 April 2012 - 02:57 PM.
#28
BertramLevy
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Posted 14 April 2012 - 10:38 AM
Here is the fingering for the first part of the Lads of Laoise. There are many ways to finger the piece and this is only one possibility A word of instruction The notation comes from my new book "American Fiddle Styles for the Anglo Concertina" When the stem is up the note is on the right side of the instrument when down it is on the left. I marked where your hand axis shifts. This is no big deal nor will slow you down. It is very similar to shifting position in the violin which requires practice but is essential to playing notes above B. In the first two measures the triplets are done in a different direction than the preceding same note In measure 7 I alternated sides for rhythm but it could all be played on the left side in the closing position.
I believe that the concept of a forbidden territory is the result of the concept the default position. While this may be a comfortable way to get started on the instrument, the concertina can do so much more. My new tutor was written to help players of all styles get to the next stage.
Bertram
I believe that the concept of a forbidden territory is the result of the concept the default position. While this may be a comfortable way to get started on the instrument, the concertina can do so much more. My new tutor was written to help players of all styles get to the next stage.
Bertram
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#31
michael sam wild
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Posted 16 April 2012 - 07:23 AM
I like Gerdie Commane's version of the Lads of Laois off Two Gentlemen of Clare (with Joe Ryan fiddler). I'd be interested to know which sources you used David and Bertram.
By the way it apparently dates back to the 1700's in Scotland as The Lads of Leith also called Sic a Wife I hae Gotten!. ( surely some words to it as a song)
As I play 26 button C/G Jeffries I am working off the index finger of the Left hand off the E push.
Gerdie also added a version of n unamed reel ( that has since been called Gerdie Commane's Reel) that didn't go down so low to the B, and A, notes
By the way it apparently dates back to the 1700's in Scotland as The Lads of Leith also called Sic a Wife I hae Gotten!. ( surely some words to it as a song)
As I play 26 button C/G Jeffries I am working off the index finger of the Left hand off the E push.
Gerdie also added a version of n unamed reel ( that has since been called Gerdie Commane's Reel) that didn't go down so low to the B, and A, notes
Edited by michael sam wild, 20 April 2012 - 11:57 AM.
#32
michael sam wild
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Posted 16 April 2012 - 07:51 AM
I thought 'sligofiddler ' did a nice version
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=bxdY_g7tydg
And I can't aspire to the Anglo playing ike the young woman here!
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=uYO9jftkFBk
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=bxdY_g7tydg
And I can't aspire to the Anglo playing ike the young woman here!
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=uYO9jftkFBk
Edited by michael sam wild, 16 April 2012 - 11:39 AM.
#33
michael sam wild
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Posted 17 April 2012 - 11:41 AM
Apparently Ms Peat has won Gold at Concertina and Irish Song so that explains it.
She is in a 5 piece called Devil's Bit ( after the notched Moutain in Tipperary? but I can't find anythiong on Google.
She is in a 5 piece called Devil's Bit ( after the notched Moutain in Tipperary? but I can't find anythiong on Google.
#34
david fabre
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Posted 20 April 2012 - 03:41 PM
Interesting discussion !Bertram, Thanks for posting the fingering ! I will try this one in your way. I'm now becoming familiar with your " shiftings of positions" and i have to say that this concept really opened me new horizons !The discussion reminds me of the workshop i had in Tocane last summer with Aogan Lynch. One of the participants suggested that we work on " the porthole of the kelp" , another of these D minor tunes which explores the low register. Aogan explained that he did not like much to play these kind of tunes, because the fingerings requires lot of bellows change, and that the phrases can't be played smoothly enough. He concluded "it's a nice tune, but not a nice concertina tune". One of the participants, who played EC, corrected : " not a nice anglo concertina tune!" He indeed played the tune in a very nice way.I tend to agree that the lack of smoothness produces a worst effect in the low range than in the higher one, and as for me, I prefer to play this tune on my G whistle.Bertram, i would love to see what would be your approach to this tune...
Edited by david fabre, 20 April 2012 - 03:50 PM.
#35
david fabre
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Posted 20 April 2012 - 03:52 PM
(the porthole of the kelp)http://www.thesessio...es/display/1533
#36
BertramLevy
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Posted 21 April 2012 - 12:26 AM
thanks for the note David. I would be happy to have a look at the tune the porthole of the kelp- Can you send the pdf of the tune either to this stream or to my info@bertramlevy.com and I will work it out.(the porthole of the kelp)http://www.thesessio...es/display/1533
Bertram
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