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#1 shelly0312

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 10:52 AM

so, I raeally enjoy that graphic on the front of the McTeague novel. How would "we" go about finding a way to make prints similar? I would love a wall hanging size graphic of it and I think it would print up really nice for t-shirts. Fun?? Imput please. Michelle (wish me luck on attachment!)

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#2 Anglogeezer

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 01:36 PM

Is this what you had in mind??

Concertina Man.png

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#3 shelly0312

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 04:07 PM

Yes, but will we get into some sort of print infringement problem--or that would only be if we tried to make a business out of it?? For private use it is OK ??

#4 Anglogeezer

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 04:34 PM

Yes, but will we get into some sort of print infringement problem--or that would only be if we tried to make a business out of it?? For private use it is OK ??

Well, you're in the USA & I'm in England, so the laws will be different. I would think that if you use it then you would be infringing the artist/publisher's copyright.
You'd need their permission.

Here it is without the dentist's chair in the background. Concertina Man Two.png

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#5 Ransom

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 05:05 PM

Yes, but will we get into some sort of print infringement problem--or that would only be if we tried to make a business out of it?? For private use it is OK ??


If you wish to take the legal high road, you could find a copy of the book and look inside it for a colophon that explains who made the cover art, or contact the publisher directly and ask them. If the publishing house is made of human beings with sense and decency, they will tell you it's no problem. If it's full of grasping misers and entitled children, perhaps they'll tell you that it can be made no problem for a thousand dollars. If they're principally lawyers, robots, and mid-level managers, they'll tell you that it's absolutely forbidden -- if they tell you anything at all.

My advice is not to let anyone tell you what you're allowed to hang on your wall.

#6 JimLucas

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 05:06 PM

Well, you're in the USA & I'm in England, so the laws will be different. I would think that if you use it then you would be infringing the artist/publisher's copyright.
You'd need their permission.

But then why not ask their permission?

They might say no, or want some sort of royalty payments, but there's nothing to be gained by not asking, is there?

#7 asdormire

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 07:36 PM

I am sure that if you get a hold of the artist or his agent, some accomendation could be come to, if he retained the publication rights to the piece. I know enough cover artists to know that they sometimes do. On the other hand, if it was done in house, or as a work made for hire, then you would have to deal with the publisher. Definitely check the front piece of the book and look to see who the artist is and try to get ahold of them and ask.

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#8 Jim Besser

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Posted 10 March 2012 - 10:39 PM

I am sure that if you get a hold of the artist or his agent, some accomendation could be come to, if he retained the publication rights to the piece. I know enough cover artists to know that they sometimes do. On the other hand, if it was done in house, or as a work made for hire, then you would have to deal with the publisher. Definitely check the front piece of the book and look to see who the artist is and try to get ahold of them and ask.

Alan


Might be hard. This edition was published more than 50 years ago.

#9 Kautilya

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 01:59 PM


I am sure that if you get a hold of the artist or his agent, some accomendation could be come to, if he retained the publication rights to the piece. I know enough cover artists to know that they sometimes do. On the other hand, if it was done in house, or as a work made for hire, then you would have to deal with the publisher. Definitely check the front piece of the book and look to see who the artist is and try to get ahold of them and ask.

Alan


Might be hard. This edition was published more than 50 years ago.

Yes you should ask permission = some decrepit pensioner artist may need money to pay his soaring gas bill/ Treat copyright like someone stealing your change from a 20 dollar bill after you buy a 10 dollar book - you would complain, rightly so... :D .......

start here:http://www.dacs.org.uk/pdfs/factsheet_29.pdf

UNLESS the cover is now out of copyright.
How much "more than 50 years" old is that edition with that cover?
It was first published it seems (McTeague is a novel by Frank Norris,in 1899 so the novel is out of copyright as he ruptured his bellows in 1902 http://en.wikipedia....i/Frank_Norris.

Now find the first edition with that specific cover to work oout the copyright. What you have may simply be a reprint which does not alter the original copyright dates afain.But the cover may also be new on the reprint and so you should date from there.
Get searching! :)

We really ought to get all this copyright stuff in one place as there is plenty of info scattered around the site. :blink:



http://ebooks.gutenb...om/mcteague.htm
(no cover)

Edited by Kautilya, 11 March 2012 - 03:08 PM.


#10 Dirge

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 02:33 PM

To me that artwork looks a period commercial job, bashed out to a price. I suspect the artist collected his mess of pottage years ago and doesn't care any more. The publishers who commissioned it might try and claim some rights but frankly, it's done the job they wanted it for so I wouldn't have any sympathy with them if they tried it on. I'd just get on and make your wall hanging and shirt but resist the temptation to go into mass production.

(I'm underwhelmed and won't be buying the T shirt, Michelle, even though I do own both concertina and bowler hat. Clearly a matter of personal taste.)

#11 Kautilya

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 03:38 PM

To me that artwork looks a period commercial job, bashed out to a price. I suspect the artist collected his mess of pottage years ago and doesn't care any more. The publishers who commissioned it might try and claim some rights but frankly, it's done the job they wanted it for so I wouldn't have any sympathy with them if they tried it on. I'd just get on and make your wall hanging and shirt but resist the temptation to go into mass production.

Dirge - naughty naughty :o . That very dodgy advice would not protect Shelly from action, if someone is still due payment on the rights. Graphics (monies due from such as book covers and photos and paintings) are actively collected by DACS (see earlier URL). Even if the artist/photographer is not credited (often inside a dust jacket or on back of a paperback) either they are or the publisher to whom they might have sold all rights originally,still come under copyright periods.
If it were in copyright and Shelly then put a photo, of the picture on the sitting room wall, up on a website it can be found.
Here's how
http://www.iphotocou...om-photo-theft/

Same with an artist/company doing a one-off painting based on a photo taken by a well-known photographer - need to ask permission and if the painter intends to make money on the back of the well-known photo/photographer then they ort to pay! Number of cases out there that I know of which have turned out to be very expensive for the 'lifter'.

And here's a little moral story (with permission!) which may help one understand why another man's mess of potage ain't for throwing in your bin...! And he really does sue!
http://www.epuk.org/...-your-copyright

Hey - see what Wiki says about author Norris
"Frank Norris's work often includes depictions of suffering caused by corrupt and greedy turn-of-the-century corporate monopolies."...
Sounds like he would have supported the worker getting the fruits of their labour.

Edited by Kautilya, 11 March 2012 - 04:00 PM.


#12 Leo

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 04:42 PM


To me that artwork looks a period commercial job, bashed out to a price. I suspect the artist collected his mess of pottage years ago and doesn't care any more. The publishers who commissioned it might try and claim some rights but frankly, it's done the job they wanted it for so I wouldn't have any sympathy with them if they tried it on. I'd just get on and make your wall hanging and shirt but resist the temptation to go into mass production.

Dirge - naughty naughty :o . That very dodgy advice would not protect Shelly from action, if someone is still due payment on the rights. Graphics (monies due from such as book covers and photos and paintings) are actively collected by DACS (see earlier URL). Even if the artist/photographer is not credited (often inside a dust jacket or on back of a paperback) either they are or the publisher to whom they might have sold all rights originally,still come under copyright periods.
If it were in copyright and Shelly then put a photo, of the picture on the sitting room wall, up on a website it can be found.
Here's how
http://www.iphotocou...om-photo-theft/

Same with an artist/company doing a one-off painting based on a photo taken by a well-known photographer - need to ask permission and if the painter intends to make money on the back of the well-known photo/photographer then they ort to pay! Number of cases out there that I know of which have turned out to be very expensive for the 'lifter'.

And here's a little moral story (with permission!) which may help one understand why another man's mess of potage ain't for throwing in your bin...! And he really does sue!
http://www.epuk.org/...-your-copyright

Hey - see what Wiki says about author Norris
"Frank Norris's work often includes depictions of suffering caused by corrupt and greedy turn-of-the-century corporate monopolies."...
Sounds like he would have supported the worker getting the fruits of their labour.


I really have to comment. Shelly doesn't live in the UK. Neither do I. All that stuff is kind of nice to read about, but has no basis in reality in the US. In the US, Congress according to our constitution is the protector of patents and copyrights, not corporations like the MPAA, RIAA, etall, and certainly not lawyers offices.

That Wiki article probably had those named corporations in mind, and their wishful monopolies haven't been pursued in the US (possibly only yet) since they have no basis in law, but they do in Europe? They really don't serve or protect the artist here.

If it were me, I'd do as Dirge suggests, and just do whatever you need, since in every case it's generally better to ask forgiveness than permission. If necessary, make some changes enough to be a "deritive work". That's allowed in the US. Nobody will bother you.

Thanks
Leo

#13 Dirge

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 04:48 PM

Dirge - naughty naughty :o .

I also have been known to fish for trout without a licence (and using worms, the ultimate sin. Sadly, I don't have access to dynamite.) I actively subvert the excise system by routinely inviting people to do me discounts for 'cash and no paperwork'. I often cross the road within a few yards of a pedestrian crossing without using the crossing (that's illegal over here). My old cars and bikes are usually mechanically deficient in some minor way that puts them outside the law too. You see I just LOOK respectable.

Seriously; my point is that, whatever the law says, morally I don't think anyone would really be losing out, and after that it's just a question of whether a) you get caught and B) whether anyone cares enough to take action if you actually are caught. Having asked myself those questions I'd risk it if I actually liked the awful thing.

For me this is the exact opposite situation to the 'Benjamin's Book' discussion where there's nothing legally to stop the tunes being put out but it seems to me extremely wrong to so do, at least for a year or two.

Editted to add; sorry leo, went and answered the door half way through this and ended up 'posting across you'.

Redrawing it is the best route of course. Out with the squared paper then you can sell a million of them. Or try...

Edited by Dirge, 11 March 2012 - 04:51 PM.


#14 Kautilya

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 06:12 PM



Dirge - naughty naughty :o .

I also have been known to fish for trout without a licence (and using worms, the ultimate sin. Sadly, I don't have access to dynamite.) I actively subvert the excise system by routinely inviting people to do me discounts for 'cash and no paperwork'. I often cross the road within a few yards of a pedestrian crossing without using the crossing (that's illegal over here). My old cars and bikes are usually mechanically deficient in some minor way that puts them outside the law too. You see I just LOOK respectable.

Seriously; my point is that, whatever the law says, morally I don't think anyone would really be losing out, and after that it's just a question of whether a) you get caught and B) whether anyone cares enough to take action if you actually are caught. Having asked myself those questions I'd risk it if I actually liked the awful thing.

For me this is the exact opposite situation to the 'Benjamin's Book' discussion where there's nothing legally to stop the tunes being put out but it seems to me extremely wrong to so do, at least for a year or two.

Editted to add; sorry leo, went and answered the door half way through this and ended up 'posting across you'.

Redrawing it is the best route of course. Out with the squared paper then you can sell a million of them. Or try...

This is hopefully the last time I rise to the bait :) :) on what is a serioous issue for all those on this forum who write their own music and lyrics and may put out their own covers on books and CDs to make a few bob to fund their hobby and some case to make a living and whichh is part of their pension in later life.

The fact is anyone can write out the tunes on paper from a borrowed
(I am sure you would not nick one Dirge) copy of the 20 quid book.

BUT - the visual graphic notation displayed through the work of the recent creators of that 20 quid book is their copyright, copyright, copyright until the appropriate years after their death(s). If they wanted you to have it for free they would give it away. It is illegal to reproduce their visual work* whether in the privacy of your own home without permission or even worse to start copying it for groups whether children at school or New Zealanders at play :ph34r:

It is good that Shelly asked the question.
* Without digging it out there are differing US/UK regulations concerning copyright on notation reproduction.

Artist(e)s composers, designers, lyricists have a right to earn a living without being ripped off - think what Salieri did to Mozart!

That is why there is a Berne convention and why many authors and writers fear they are going to be very badly hit if money-making high-fee charging universities and colleges and private academies are no longer going to have to pay an annual licence to use copyright materials for free under proposals under dispute at the moment.

I fear to read a headline which says Eminent Baritone concertina player arrested:
seen using mini camera on end of fishing rod pushed through bookshop letterbox to lift music score of the top-hit Dirge Fantastic Toons. He was apprehended after jay-running across the road and trying to drive away in an MG but its rear wheel fell off.... :P

Berne convention diy: http://www.copyright...g-copyright.htm

#15 asdormire

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 09:40 PM


I am sure that if you get a hold of the artist or his agent, some accomendation could be come to, if he retained the publication rights to the piece. I know enough cover artists to know that they sometimes do. On the other hand, if it was done in house, or as a work made for hire, then you would have to deal with the publisher. Definitely check the front piece of the book and look to see who the artist is and try to get ahold of them and ask.

Alan


Might be hard. This edition was published more than 50 years ago.


I'm not ignoring the other conversation that has from this point on, just want to make a comment. Again assuming it wasn't done in house or as work for hire, if the artist is passed, there are still the possibility of heirs that might have rights. As an author and the spouse of an author, I expect my rights to be respected, and feel it important that the rights of others are respected as well.

Alan

#16 Jody Kruskal

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 10:34 PM

If you look closely, the drawing is not of a concertina, but rather a melodeon... so all bets are off.

#17 cboody

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Posted 11 March 2012 - 11:58 PM

These discussions just keep coming.

1) If a work is in copyright someone owns it and can demand payment. If they knew of a use and chose to they can pursue the violation. Exactly what "in copyright" might mean is going to vary from country to country, but the end result is the same. One can wriggle around with "no one is hurt" as much as one wishes, but the legal answers remain substancially the same.

2) One can elect to ignore the copyright situation as one wishes and most often, if one is not producing lots of copies for sale (that is profiting from the use) the copyright holder will often ignore or at least be very reasonable about a violation that is discovered. On the other hand, in many cases no one will know and you may be just fine. The morals and perils of the situation are yours to decide.

3) Morally even if the work is not in copyright and certainly if the work is suspected to be in copyright it would be reasonable to try to find the creator and request the right to use it. Sometimes it is difficult if not impossible to do that. "I tried" is not an excuse but will most often be accepted if some sort of "good faith" effort can be proved.

Recently a west coast guy got the rights to collect royalties for use of a bunch of common tunes including "Crested Hens" by Giles Chabenait (sp?). The tune has been recorded many many times. He was sending nasty letters demanding $1500.00 as payment (a fiarly unreasonable amount) to avoid prosecution. Apparently he did have the authorization to act as the protector of those works, but he used fear as a tactic to pressure folks. I have two friends, both of whom had recorded the tune and properly paid royalties (through Sam Fox in one case and directly to Giles in the other). They had to convince this guy they were not in violation. I've no idea how many folks got caught in what was really a sort of legal scam. There are ugly folks on both sides of this whole issue.

#18 Ransom

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Posted 12 March 2012 - 02:26 AM

These discussions just keep coming.


Well, it's a pet issue of mine, so I won't let it slip by as long as we're on the subject. But I'll try to keep myself in check enough not to pounce on everybody all the time. =)

3) Morally even if the work is not in copyright and certainly if the work is suspected to be in copyright it would be reasonable to try to find the creator and request the right to use it. Sometimes it is difficult if not impossible to do that. "I tried" is not an excuse but will most often be accepted if some sort of "good faith" effort can be proved.


I have a problem with this. "Morally ... it would be reasonable". I agree that it would be reasonable from a standpoint of artistic and professional courtesy, but my sense of morals tells me that the freedom of the individual to produce concertina-themed posters is a far nobler object of preservation than the artistic sensibilities or profit-making schemes of a dust-jacket illustrator and his heirs and assigns.

If you feel it's reasonable to track this person down and loop them in on the project, I'm fine with that. But if you suggest that it is UNreasonable for a person to proceed with an artistic and useful tshirt-making project without securing the permission of a second party, then so help me, I will fight you to the ground. (Just on principle, you understand-- nothing personal! =) )



I guess I'll do this one too, as long as I'm here.

As an author and the spouse of an author, I expect my rights to be respected, and feel it important that the rights of others are respected as well.


Hello, Alan! I hope that authorship has brought you success and fulfillment-- in whatever artistic, financial, or other sense you have hoped for. I love to respect rights. But I don't concede you any right to veto the work of my pen or my printing press.

If I read something in one of your books that I want to share with a Russian friend, I will translate the passage into Russian without so much as a by-your-leave. I would have to be pretty bored to translate an entire book, but if I do, it's none of your business-- I won't claim authorship for myself, or pretend that you have reviewed or authorized the translation. And if I would like to sell the fruits of my labor... well, I understand that the law is on your side, but I don't have to like it.

I wish you and your wife continued success. Almost as much as I wish to see copyright die in a fire.




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