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Benjamin's Book


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#1 Chris Drinkwater

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Posted 25 February 2012 - 07:57 AM

Benjamin Rose lived in the tiny community of Belchalwell, in North Dorset. He was a farmer, alehouse keeper and musician. On January 29th 1820, he began to write out the country dance tunes that he played locally at dances, celebrations and parties. His manuscript book recently came to light and guitarist Colin Thompson and duet concertina player and singer, Tim Laycock, have put together a lovely reproduction of his tune book, which has now been published. It contains the dots to 133 tunes and a mp3 CD, with all the tunes recorded on it, for the musically illiterate! For anyone interested in playing these sort of tunes, this book is a must. There are a large number of previously unknown tunes contained in it. I did a workshop with Tim last year, in which he explored some of the tunes from the Rose manuscript and I thoroughly enjoyed learning some of them. Now, there is a chance for these lost tunes to reach a wider audience. The book, in spiral bound form, costs a very reasonable 20.00 plus postage. The link to Tim's website, is http://www.timlaycoc...20/page20.html'> here , for anyone interested in purchasing the tune book. I have just bought a copy and I am gradually working my way throught it. Well done, Colin and Tim, for seeing this project through. The more tunes, the merrier. :)

Chris

#2 tallship

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 06:28 PM

I've ordered a copy, I hope the scan quality is good!

#3 SteveS

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Posted 27 February 2012 - 07:12 PM

I've also ordered a copy.

#4 tallship

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 06:12 PM

The book arrived today and it's a lovely thing. I'm probably odd but books, particularly manuscripts, delight me beyond belief and this one is a treasure! The fact that this one is accompanied by a disc containing recordings of all 130 tunes played by proficient and imaginative musicians makes it rather special. Highly recommended.

#5 SteveS

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 06:29 PM

The book arrived today and it's a lovely thing. I'm probably odd but books, particularly manuscripts, delight me beyond belief and this one is a treasure! The fact that this one is accompanied by a disc containing recordings of all 130 tunes played by proficient and imaginative musicians makes it rather special. Highly recommended.

Agreed - mine also arrived today - looking forward to trying some of the tunes this weekend.

#6 Chris Drinkwater

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Posted 01 March 2012 - 08:17 PM

The book arrived today and it's a lovely thing. I'm probably odd but books, particularly manuscripts, delight me beyond belief and this one is a treasure! The fact that this one is accompanied by a disc containing recordings of all 130 tunes played by proficient and imaginative musicians makes it rather special. Highly recommended.



Listening to the CD as I type this. There are some real gems amongst the tunes. Can we look forward to you translating the dots in to ABC format Pete, so we can print off posh PDFs?

Chris

#7 tallship

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 12:30 PM

Can we look forward to you translating the dots in to ABC format Pete, so we can print off posh PDFs?

Chris

Certainly not for general use or distribution! I will be contacting the authors this weekend to inform them that I'll be transcribing the book for my own use and offer them the source ABC file, an ABC leadsheet should they want it, and a PDF of the whole book. I'll probably ask that they involve themselves in the process by proofreading and error checking my work as they hold the original. I will also suggest that they offer a PDF file to everyone who buys (or has bought) a copy of the book so that they too can enjoy a clearly printed score. What I won't do under any circumstances is make the abc file or any part of it available to anyone other than the authors.

Pete :)

#8 Chris Drinkwater

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Posted 02 March 2012 - 07:51 PM

Can we look forward to you translating the dots in to ABC format Pete, so we can print off posh PDFs?

Chris

Certainly not for general use or distribution! I will be contacting the authors this weekend to inform them that I'll be transcribing the book for my own use and offer them the source ABC file, an ABC leadsheet should they want it, and a PDF of the whole book. I'll probably ask that they involve themselves in the process by proofreading and error checking my work as they hold the original. I will also suggest that they offer a PDF file to everyone who buys (or has bought) a copy of the book so that they too can enjoy a clearly printed score. What I won't do under any circumstances is make the abc file or any part of it available to anyone other than the authors.

Pete :)



Well, given that the manuscript book is nearly 200 years old, I can't see a problem with copyright, Pete. Obviously, it would be courteous to mention your intention to Colin and Tim and see what they say, but after nearly 200 years, all these tunes would be in the public domain, as they are in William Winter's manuscript book, which was the subject of a similar publishing, some four years ago. If they were made available in ABC format and/or PDF format in a downloadable internet tune book, I can't see it affecting sales of Colin and Tim's re-print, complete with CD, as this is a gem on it's own. :)

Chris

#9 cboody

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 12:42 AM


Can we look forward to you translating the dots in to ABC format Pete, so we can print off posh PDFs?

Chris

Certainly not for general use or distribution! I will be contacting the authors this weekend to inform them that I'll be transcribing the book for my own use and offer them the source ABC file, an ABC leadsheet should they want it, and a PDF of the whole book. I'll probably ask that they involve themselves in the process by proofreading and error checking my work as they hold the original. I will also suggest that they offer a PDF file to everyone who buys (or has bought) a copy of the book so that they too can enjoy a clearly printed score. What I won't do under any circumstances is make the abc file or any part of it available to anyone other than the authors.

Pete :)



Well, given that the manuscript book is nearly 200 years old, I can't see a problem with copyright, Pete. Obviously, it would be courteous to mention your intention to Colin and Tim and see what they say, but after nearly 200 years, all these tunes would be in the public domain, as they are in William Winter's manuscript book, which was the subject of a similar publishing, some four years ago. If they were made available in ABC format and/or PDF format in a downloadable internet tune book, I can't see it affecting sales of Colin and Tim's re-print, complete with CD, as this is a gem on it's own. :)

Chris


Of course you are right about copyright issues Chris, but I think there is a moral issue here too and Pete comes down on the correct side of it. If the authors don't care (and obviously you won't get that nice CD with the abc) I'm sure a grand announcement will happen. Meanwhile, it is well to keep in mind the kindness of those folks who did the original work and not get in their way.

#10 Chris Drinkwater

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 07:26 PM



Can we look forward to you translating the dots in to ABC format Pete, so we can print off posh PDFs?

Chris

Certainly not for general use or distribution! I will be contacting the authors this weekend to inform them that I'll be transcribing the book for my own use and offer them the source ABC file, an ABC leadsheet should they want it, and a PDF of the whole book. I'll probably ask that they involve themselves in the process by proofreading and error checking my work as they hold the original. I will also suggest that they offer a PDF file to everyone who buys (or has bought) a copy of the book so that they too can enjoy a clearly printed score. What I won't do under any circumstances is make the abc file or any part of it available to anyone other than the authors.

Pete :)



Well, given that the manuscript book is nearly 200 years old, I can't see a problem with copyright, Pete. Obviously, it would be courteous to mention your intention to Colin and Tim and see what they say, but after nearly 200 years, all these tunes would be in the public domain, as they are in William Winter's manuscript book, which was the subject of a similar publishing, some four years ago. If they were made available in ABC format and/or PDF format in a downloadable internet tune book, I can't see it affecting sales of Colin and Tim's re-print, complete with CD, as this is a gem on it's own. :)

Chris


Of course you are right about copyright issues Chris, but I think there is a moral issue here too and Pete comes down on the correct side of it. If the authors don't care (and obviously you won't get that nice CD with the abc) I'm sure a grand announcement will happen. Meanwhile, it is well to keep in mind the kindness of those folks who did the original work and not get in their way.



Yes, I appreciate that there are moral and commercial issues here and that the book and its content in the form it is presented in, are the copyright of the authors, who have done a great service in making this tune collection available for public consumption. I just feel that having copies of the dots for the tunes also made available in modern printed notation, might make sight reading easier for those who sight read, and compliment the book, rather than take away from it. Just my thinking. We'll leave it to Pete to deal with it and see what Colin and Tim have to say, if and when he contacts them about it.

Chris

#11 Dirge

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Posted 04 March 2012 - 10:17 PM

This need for a mechanically generated text must be a personal thing. I get music from the ICA library and most of it was originally neatly handwritten; it takes a little while (but only a LITTLE while) to get your eye in but then it adds to the pleasure of the music. Stanley's caligraphy (he did most of the stuff I get sent) is precise and tidy and the feeling of being that little bit more in touch with him is great. I wouldn't want a mechanically generated version, not for all the tea in China. It might be easier to read but it would lose a huge amount of charm.

But, judging by the sample pages of Mr Rose's book, you hardly have to make an effort with his music. It's quite beautiful, extremely clear and far more painstaking than Stanley's for starters. I grant it's not exactly what most of us may be used to but I doubt the clarity could be much improved, frankly, looking at it, unless they have chosen the clearest pages as samples and the rest is of a spectacularly lower standard. Presumably this was also the opinion of Messrs Thompson and Laycock themselves, or they'd have organised a transcription instead of a facsimile.

And I'm sorry Chris but of course it's going to affect their return for their efforts if someone made all the tunes generally available within weeks of the book coming out, out of copyright or not. It's certainly not worth the risk if you'd ever like to see something like this published again.

#12 David Barnert

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 11:02 AM

Just found this thread today and ordered the book/CD for shipment to USA (easy with PayPal).

I use abc for a lot of stuff, but I agree that making abc's available of these tunes would not be fair to Messrs. Laycock & Thompson. The only reason there is interest in the tunes is through their considerable efforts and investment, but anybody with access to the abc would be less likely to purchase the product.

#13 tallship

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 01:53 PM

Just found this thread today and ordered the book/CD for shipment to USA (easy with PayPal).


You'll enjoy the beautifully presented book and there are some wonderful tunes. :)

I use abc for a lot of stuff, but I agree that making abc's available of these tunes would not be fair to Messrs. Laycock & Thompson. The only reason there is interest in the tunes is through their considerable efforts and investment, but anybody with access to the abc would be less likely to purchase the product.


As I said earlier my abc transcription will not be made available! I have been in touch with Colin Thompson and he'd be delighted to have the abc file as it will help in producing sheet music for workshops. I have now asked if he will make PDF copies available to people who've bought the book but I haven't had a reply to that question yet. Copyright law isn't as simple as it's being made out here, you can get in a lot of hot water very quickly if you're not careful! Copyright law aside I respect the rights of the authors to reap the just rewards for their hard work and financial investment and I wouldn't dream of doing anything to jeopardise that. I will write the file and print myself a copy, the rest is up to the authors.

Pete.

Edited by tallship, 05 March 2012 - 03:15 PM.


#14 David Barnert

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 11:28 AM

As I said earlier my abc transcription will not be made available!

I know, but it sounds like others were hoping otherwise.

#15 tallship

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Posted 06 March 2012 - 06:32 PM

I know, but it sounds like others were hoping otherwise.


Well I'll do my best to get Colin and Tim to offer PDF files to people who have bought the book but I don't have much to twist their arms with, nor would want to. I do think it would be a nice touch but what do I know?

Pete.

#16 tallship

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Posted 07 March 2012 - 06:17 PM

It just so happens that Chris Partington of the Village Music Project has been invited to review Benjamin's Book and already has a copy. Chris normally proofreads and error corrects my transcriptions of old manuscripts for the VMP and has offered to do so on this occasion while I take time out from working on another VMP project. So Colin and Tim will have an 'unofficial' (the Village Music Project never transcribes modern printed collections) VMP 'grace and favour' transcription to acknowledge the hard work they have put into bringing this lovely collection of tunes back into circulation. :)

#17 Chris Drinkwater

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 06:08 AM

Copyright law isn't as simple as it's being made out here, you can get in a lot of hot water very quickly if you're not careful!

Pete.



For anyone interested, here's a brief summary of copyright law as it applies to music in the UK.


What is Copyright?
Copyright protects original literary, dramatic, musical and artistic works. It allows an original work to be considered a property that is owned by somebody. The framework for Copyright Law is the Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988 ('the Act').

When does Copyright begin?
In music, copyright begins automatically once a piece of music is created, and documented or recorded (eg. on video, tape or CD or simply writing down the notation of a score).

What are your rights as a Copyright owner?
If you own the copyright you possess the sole authority to:

*copy the music
*issue, lend or rent copies to the public
*perform, show or play the music in public
*communicate the music to the public (i.e. broadcasting it via TV, radio, internet etc.)


How long does Copyright last?
In the UK, copyright generally lasts for a period of 70 years from the end of the calendar year in which the author dies. If the music originates from outside the European Economic Area (EEA), the copyright lasts for as long as the music is protected by copyright in its country of origin, provided that the length of time does not exceed 70 years.


So, my interpretation of this, is that because more than seventy years have elapsed since the death of Benjamin Rose, all the music in his manuscript book is now in the public domain,and copies of the tunes can be made regardless of whether he was the original composer of any of the tunes, or merely copied them from other sources himself; and no royalties are payable to Benjamin or his estate for playing and recording/broadcasting any of his tunes, either. What is copyright, is Colin and Tim's book, and the form they are presented in it. It has an initial numbered print run of 1000 copies and mine is copy number 86. It is a lovely book, containing a lot of information they have unearthed about Benjamin, his background and the likely origins of many of the tunes. I hope it sells really well.


It just so happens that Chris Partington of the Village Music Project has been invited to review Benjamin's Book and already has a copy. Chris normally proofreads and error corrects my transcriptions of old manuscripts for the VMP and has offered to do so on this occasion while I take time out from working on another VMP project. So Colin and Tim will have an 'unofficial' (the Village Music Project never transcribes modern printed collections) VMP 'grace and favour' transcription to acknowledge the hard work they have put into bringing this lovely collection of tunes back into circulation.
Pete



That's great news, Pete, however, you could hardly describe Benjamin's Book, as a modern printed collection, could you. unlike Nick Barber's English Choice, for example? :unsure:

Chris

Edited by Chris Drinkwater, 08 March 2012 - 06:27 AM.


#18 tallship

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Posted 08 March 2012 - 01:37 PM

So, my interpretation of this, is that ...

That's where it came unstuck, right there.

I was too lazy to google anything so I just asked the wife who assured me it's not as simple as that. I tend to respect her opinion in such matters, she is after all a lawyer. :rolleyes:




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