Jump to content


Photo

leather valves


  • Please log in to reply
23 replies to this topic

#1 larosdad

larosdad

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 12 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:ireland

Posted 08 January 2012 - 03:16 PM

Does anyone know what is the best type of leather for concertina valves ?

#2 JimLucas

JimLucas

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9124 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denmark

Posted 08 January 2012 - 04:47 PM

Does anyone know what is the best type of leather for concertina valves ?

No time to search for it right now, but I believe there's an old post where Rich Morse went into detail about leather, including what parts of the skin are best for different uses in the concertina.

Edited by JimLucas, 08 January 2012 - 04:48 PM.


#3 Larry Stout

Larry Stout

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 589 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Normal, IL

Posted 08 January 2012 - 06:09 PM

I tried the search without success. My (probably unreliable) memory is that the valves are made from leather from hair sheep. It was reported that the valves need to have the grain in the correct direction. I decided that for me it would make sense to buy the valves from someone who understood all of this or, better yet, have one of our excellent repairmen do a tuning and replace the valves as needed.

#4 Larry Stout

Larry Stout

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 589 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Normal, IL

Posted 08 January 2012 - 06:18 PM

Take a look at what Wim Wakker has to say at
http://www.concertin...rtina reeds.htm
He's one of the experts I've sent an instrument to for work involving new valves.

Edited by Larry Stout, 09 January 2012 - 02:44 PM.


#5 Anglogeezer

Anglogeezer

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 164 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Beverley, East Yorkshire, England

Posted 09 January 2012 - 12:55 PM

How about Concertina Spares

regards
Jake

#6 AlexCJones

AlexCJones

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 196 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oak Park, Illinois, USA

Posted 16 January 2012 - 12:24 AM

I have a different question about the leather valves. ( I just bought a copy of Dave Elliott's book on eBay, so I have about a week or two before I see it. Meanwhile. . . )

What kind of glue should one use to glue the leather valve to the metal read block?

Thanks

#7 Andy Holder

Andy Holder

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 237 posts

Posted 16 January 2012 - 04:59 PM

I have a different question about the leather valves. ( I just bought a copy of Dave Elliott's book on eBay, so I have about a week or two before I see it. Meanwhile. . . )

What kind of glue should one use to glue the leather valve to the metal read block?

Thanks


Hi Alex. The leather valve isn't glued to the metal reed frame. It's glued to the wood on the other side of the reed pan from the reed, over the slot cut in the wood. I use Feibing's Leathercraft Cement See here which I think is just PVA but twice the price. Still, it sounds good! Some people use a mix of PVA and cornstarch glue and the real masochists use animal hide glue!

#8 Ken_Coles

Ken_Coles

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Admin
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1478 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Indiana, Pennsylvania, and Logansport, Indiana, U.S.A.

Posted 16 January 2012 - 05:34 PM

AlexC may have an instrument with accordion reeds, in which case he might well be gluing to metal reed frames.

Somewhere here is an old post by the late Rich Morse in which he describes how they used thickened shellac to attach valves.

Ken

#9 AlexCJones

AlexCJones

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 196 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oak Park, Illinois, USA

Posted 16 January 2012 - 11:18 PM


I have a different question about the leather valves. ( I just bought a copy of Dave Elliott's book on eBay, so I have about a week or two before I see it. Meanwhile. . . )

What kind of glue should one use to glue the leather valve to the metal read block?

Thanks


Hi Alex. The leather valve isn't glued to the metal reed frame. It's glued to the wood on the other side of the reed pan from the reed, over the slot cut in the wood. I use Feibing's Leathercraft Cement See here which I think is just PVA but twice the price. Still, it sounds good! Some people use a mix of PVA and cornstarch glue and the real masochists use animal hide glue!

On this concertina, it is glued to the metal reed block. This is a Scholer 20 button concertina that I am fixing up to have something that a real sailor would use. The one I am fixing up has a total of 12 trapezoidal reed blocks - each reed block has 5 reeds for the push, and 5 for the pull. There are 3 reeds per note, giving the pitch in 3 simultaneous octaves. It is a little late for me to photograph it right now, but I have a photo of another smaller Scholer that has only 1 reed per note, and therefore has only a total of 4 trapezoidal reed blocks. This one I am cannibalizing for parts. Here is 1 of its reed blocks, showing 2 of the leather valves glued to the metal reed block:
TrapaziodalReadblock.JPG



I have something called "Eco-Flo Tanner's Bond Leathercraft Cement", that is the same thing as Feibing's Leathercraft Cement. I would not be surprised if it holds the leather to wood, because wood is porous, but it is metal that I need to know about.

Edited by AlexCJones, 16 January 2012 - 11:21 PM.


#10 Theo

Theo

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1412 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Gateshead, England. Land of the Angel of the North!

Posted 17 January 2012 - 03:23 AM

I use Bostic extra strong contact adhesive for applying valves to aluminium and zinc reedplates. It comes in a hand tube which makes it easy to apply. I apply the glue to the valve only and press it into place immediately. I've been using this method for about 7 years now and have no complaints so far.

Edited by Theo, 17 January 2012 - 03:25 AM.


#11 Andy Holder

Andy Holder

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 237 posts

Posted 17 January 2012 - 12:20 PM



I have a different question about the leather valves. ( I just bought a copy of Dave Elliott's book on eBay, so I have about a week or two before I see it. Meanwhile. . . )

What kind of glue should one use to glue the leather valve to the metal read block?

Thanks


Hi Alex. The leather valve isn't glued to the metal reed frame. It's glued to the wood on the other side of the reed pan from the reed, over the slot cut in the wood. I use Feibing's Leathercraft Cement See here which I think is just PVA but twice the price. Still, it sounds good! Some people use a mix of PVA and cornstarch glue and the real masochists use animal hide glue!

On this concertina, it is glued to the metal reed block. This is a Scholer 20 button concertina that I am fixing up to have something that a real sailor would use. The one I am fixing up has a total of 12 trapezoidal reed blocks - each reed block has 5 reeds for the push, and 5 for the pull. There are 3 reeds per note, giving the pitch in 3 simultaneous octaves. It is a little late for me to photograph it right now, but I have a photo of another smaller Scholer that has only 1 reed per note, and therefore has only a total of 4 trapezoidal reed blocks. This one I am cannibalizing for parts. Here is 1 of its reed blocks, showing 2 of the leather valves glued to the metal reed block:
TrapaziodalReadblock.JPG



I have something called "Eco-Flo Tanner's Bond Leathercraft Cement", that is the same thing as Feibing's Leathercraft Cement. I would not be surprised if it holds the leather to wood, because wood is porous, but it is metal that I need to know about.



My apologies Alex. My lack of knowledge, I'd never come across that type of instrument before. I see your problem. Theo's idea sounds good. When you say a real sailor, are you planning to use it on a boat? On my boat, everything non ferrous rusts very very quickly! Especially dissimilar metals next to each other. Good luck.
Andy.

#12 AlexCJones

AlexCJones

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 196 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oak Park, Illinois, USA

Posted 20 January 2012 - 11:20 PM

I use Bostic extra strong contact adhesive for applying valves to aluminium and zinc reedplates. It comes in a hand tube which makes it easy to apply. I apply the glue to the valve only and press it into place immediately. I've been using this method for about 7 years now and have no complaints so far.


Thanks Theo. Much appreciated. When I Google "Bostic extra strong contact adhesive" it returns results for it spelled "Bostik" and it looks like it is mostly available in UK. Would anyone know of an equivalent glue that is sold in the States? If not, I'll just try whatever describes itself as a "contact adhesive".

#13 AlexCJones

AlexCJones

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 196 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oak Park, Illinois, USA

Posted 20 January 2012 - 11:26 PM

My apologies Alex. My lack of knowledge, I'd never come across that type of instrument before. I see your problem. Theo's idea sounds good. When you say a real sailor, are you planning to use it on a boat? On my boat, everything non ferrous rusts very very quickly! Especially dissimilar metals next to each other. Good luck.
Andy.


. . . Well not likely a boat, but a ship. In the summer, our Sea Shanty group often goes aboard a ship called the WindyI.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=KpOOxnX4Y1Y

Mostly, though, I plan to play it on shore at our usual monthly Shanty gathering at a pub called the Atlantic





#14 Bryan Lafleur

Bryan Lafleur

    New Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 1 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Athen, Tx

Posted 21 January 2012 - 09:02 AM

Alex, I haven't been able to find Bostik contact in the US, either, but I did try some contact adhesive sold by leather supplier Tandy Leather, that worked very well for leather valves. It's in a spray can, I just sprayed a little in a bottle top and applied with a toothpick.

Bryan Lafleur

#15 jrintaha

jrintaha

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 20 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Finland

Posted 23 February 2012 - 09:35 AM

I'm not sure if the original poster is still in need of an answer, but after experimenting with a dozen different adhesives I've ended up using shellac for gluing accordion valves (that is, leather to metal). I'd recommend against using shellac varnish in a bottle, because its shelf life is rather short, and if it's too old, it will not glue well. I use raw shellac flakes which I dissolve in ethanol. (Bleached and coloured shellac flakes have been soaked in acetone to dissolve some of the colours, and the treatment probably affects its gluing properties, so I wouldn't use them just to be on the safe side.)

When re-valving accordions, one easily goes through hundreds of valves depending on the size of the box, so it's essential that I can streamline as much of the operation as possible, and this is where shellac comes in. Just open my jar of prepared shellac (I leave it a bit softer than honey), dip a brush or toothpick in the shellac, spread a bit on a reed plate, rinse & repeat. After all reed plates have shellac on them, press valves on them. It dries so slowly you can complete a whole block of reeds in one go, and you can adjust the alignment of the leathers to be just perfect, whereas with a lot of contact cements, metal glues and super glues, you get one go at getting it right, and then it's already glued tight.

The downside with raw shellac flakes is that they're very expensive to buy in sensible quantities. http://www.shellacshack.com/ is a US supplier, but unless you're running an antique restoration shop, their 1 lb bags will last a very long time. And I don't think their prices are that good, because I've been buying shellac flakes at roughly 25 a kilogram (roughly 33 USD per 2.2 lb) in Finland, the land of everything is expensive.

Cheers,
Jori

#16 d.elliott

d.elliott

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1054 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sheffield, South Yorkshire, England

Posted 25 February 2012 - 07:49 AM

I have a different question about the leather valves. ( I just bought a copy of Dave Elliott's book on eBay, so I have about a week or two before I see it. Meanwhile. . . )

What kind of glue should one use to glue the leather valve to the metal read block?

Thanks


Please do not use an impact adhesive (evostick or bostick) or a PVA on a concertina, it makes subsequent maintenance a nightmare. I use gum Arabic or shellac, they hold well, and can be easily scraped off. remember that a concertina is not for life, it is for many lives.

Dave

#17 Theo

Theo

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1412 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Gateshead, England. Land of the Angel of the North!

Posted 25 February 2012 - 08:23 AM

I've found this Staples liquid glue very good for attaching valves. I think it may be gum arabic based. Just don't try to apply it with the glue pen it come in!

#18 d.elliott

d.elliott

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1054 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Sheffield, South Yorkshire, England

Posted 25 February 2012 - 11:56 AM

I've found this Staples liquid glue very good for attaching valves. I think it may be gum arabic based. Just don't try to apply it with the glue pen it come in!


Since Gloy Gum has disappeared, the only other alternative that I know of is the gum arabic crystals. You can get them from the wicca sites, just dont put a hex on the concertina, although the are already hex-agonal, or at least most are. (sorry)

Dave




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users