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#1 michael sam wild

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 11:26 AM

Sadly some infantile postings have led to this being locked. Can we continue here without the juvenilia?

#2 Ken_Coles

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Posted 28 January 2011 - 01:57 PM

Discussions are welcome IF we can agree to disagree and not insist on others following our one viewpoint, and IF it is concertina related. If it wanders off with respect to either criterion, it has to stop. This is a concertina site. If a topic really doesn't involve concertinas there must be a better way/place to hash it over. And if something you object to happens to you or your post, don't hit back, just report it to Paul and me. Thanks for helping out, everybody.

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#3 Ardie

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 04:01 AM

Sadly some infantile postings have led to this being locked. Can we continue here without the juvenilia?


Being an infant I am too juvenile to understand but maybe there isn't much more to say but "agree to disagree" as Ken says below?


Discussions are welcome IF we can agree to disagree and not insist on others following our one viewpoint, and IF it is concertina related. If it wanders off with respect to either criterion, it has to stop. Ken


Ken, I don't fully understand the practise of the criteria:

Isn't it often a natural component in any discussion to "insist on others following our one viewpoint" ? If the dispute is whether a triangle has four sides or not is it an offence to insist it has only three instead of "agree to disagree"?? Does the discussion have to be stopped otherwise or can some tactical and tactful guidance be a more fruitful way to continue while keeping heat down and asking us infants to use other words?

This "Acupuncture" topic was not "concertina related" from the very start and there were 21 posts before it was stopped so that can hardly have been the cause for the action?

#4 Randy Stein

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 07:27 AM

<This "Acupuncture" topic was not "concertina related" from the very start and there were 21 posts before it was stopped so that can hardly have been the cause for the action?>
[/quote]

Actually, i started the topic because as I get older the aches and pains of age from a haphazard youth follow me after playing and practicing at long intervals. The "Ergonomics" topic field allows everyone to share ideas that others find helpful. For some, changing the way one sits, a new hand strap, or...acupuncture may offer an not-thought-of and alternative remedy to that which ails ye.
Words are also powerful tools and can be helpful and instructive:
Take as directed.
Rinse once and repeat
Read carefully and consider before hitting send.
rss

Edited by Randy Stein, 30 January 2011 - 07:28 AM.


#5 JimLucas

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Posted 30 January 2011 - 07:48 AM

Discussions are welcome IF we can agree to disagree and not insist on others following our one viewpoint, and IF it is concertina related. If it wanders off with respect to either criterion, it has to stop.

Ken, I don't fully understand the practise of the criteria:

Isn't it often a natural component in any discussion to "insist on others following our one viewpoint" ?

In some social environments that may be considered "natural", but not in all... and not here on concertina.net.

If the dispute is whether a triangle has four sides or not is it an offence to insist it has only three instead of "agree to disagree"?? Does the discussion have to be stopped otherwise or can some tactical and tactful guidance be a more fruitful way to continue while keeping heat down and asking us infants to use other words?

I think you've chosen a very poor "example". Or maybe not.

"Poor", because it's a completely different class of disagreement, one in which your proposed difference of opinion is not and cannot be based on "evidence". Also, it has nothing to do with concertinas.

And yet it's an excellent example in the current context, because if you could actually find anyone who firmly believes that a "triangle" has four sides, then their belief is based on something other than mathematical reality and is fairly certain not to be swayed by any sort of argument, including and especially an argument that is based on facts and logic. And so the only useful thing to do with such a discussion is to end it, without concern for whether the point has been "won" or "lost", or even (especially?) who had the last word.

This "Acupuncture" topic was not "concertina related" from the very start and there were 21 posts before it was stopped so that can hardly have been the cause for the action?

To the contrary.

Its beginning was quite relevant, in that it dealt with physiological factors which can impact one's ability to play concertina, and to enjoy doing so. (If that's not "concertina related", then neither is the entire Ergonomics subForum, and maybe the Teaching and Learning subForum, as well.)

But then it morphed into an argument about medical philosophies in general and which authorities to believe in. As with religions and political philosophies, that's neither directly concertina-related nor something which the members of concertina.net can be expected to agree on, no matter how long or civil the discussion may be.

In order to keep the primary focus here on concertinas, such philosophical discussions are avoided, and when they turn into disputes, they must be terminated. One form of termination is "agree to disagree", but if that doesn't happen, then a more drastic method becomes necessary.

Note: I have no authority here. The above is not any sort of "official" opinion. It is, however, my observation of the way the "community" of concertina.net works and has worked, and most effectively, for many years. Our friendliness, helpfulness, and especially our lack of acrimony, power struggles, flame wars, trolls, etc. are legendary. They are maintained mainly through example and, occasionally, peer pressure. Another thing we're noted for is how seldom the moderators take direct action with regard to the workings of our discussions. But they will do so if they feel that there is a threat to the community spirit and concertina-centric focus. (Digressions from a pure concertina focus are actually frequent, and they tend to enhance our sense of "community"... as long as they remain limited.)

Edited by JimLucas, 30 January 2011 - 07:50 AM.


#6 Ardie

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Posted 31 January 2011 - 08:57 PM


Isn't it often a natural component in any discussion to "insist on others following our one viewpoint" ?


In some social environments that may be considered "natural", but not in all... and not here on concertina.net.


If there is openness and a positive attitude to learning there ought to be readiness to accept that there may be insistence on matters of fact - something which has formed all history for better or worse ( as for Galileo). I guess many readers on concertina.net are interested in learning rather than vague opinions on this or that.It is of course a matter of keeping a debate from turning into a destructive dispute but closing talks or "agree to disagree" may lead nowhere.In international diplomacy it may even end up in warfare.

In order to keep the primary focus here on concertinas, such philosophical discussions are avoided


?

#7 JimLucas

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 03:25 AM

Isn't it often a natural component in any discussion to "insist on others following our one viewpoint" ?

In some social environments that may be considered "natural", but not in all... and not here on concertina.net.

If there is openness and a positive attitude to learning there ought to be readiness to accept that there may be insistence on matters of fact...

What you insist are "facts", others are claiming to be otherwise... and vice versa. Thus, lacking further evidence, it becomes opinion. And since concertinas are not relevant to the determination of what is or isn't factual about acupuncture, concertina.net is not a relevant venue for attempting to classify "fact" vs. "fallacy" on that subject.

...something which has formed all history for better or worse ( as for Galileo).

It is reported that Galileo understood that there were contexts in which it was not productive or beneficial to insist.

I guess many readers on concertina.net are interested in learning rather than vague opinions on this or that.

And if they have a strong interest in learning more about the general validity of acupuncture, or other non-concertina subjects, they can join internet forums dedicated to those topics. Perhaps you could recommend such a forum, and those who wish can join you there for a continuation of that discussion.

As for your insistence that insistence is appropriate, I'll be glad to continue that discussion off line (PM's are good for that), but I don't want to further impose it on the rest of concertina.net.

#8 Randy Stein

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 05:56 AM

Fact: I have arthritis in my shoulder and elbow
Fact: Most pain medications and cortisone shots have an adverse effect on me.

Fact: I go to a physician who also practices acupuncture and osteopath. I go for about 4-6 treatments.
Fact: the arthritic aches and pains subside for 4-6 months.

I'm just saying...
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#9 Ardie

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 07:32 AM

...something which has formed all history for better or worse ( as for Galileo).

It is reported that Galileo understood that there were contexts in which it was not productive or beneficial to insist.


I won't say another word about acupuncture.First you said the topic was relevant at this forum,now you say it isn't. The matters regarding facts vs opinions remain relevant for concertinas as for anything else however - just returning to concertinas...

A peculiar way commenting on Galileo.Being entirely right ( as we know the facts ) he changed his word (which did not change the facts ) when being threatened and maybe tortured by "those in power" at a time when insisting to tell the truth meant a substantial risk being grilled over open fire - look what happened to Bruno for basicially the same insistence.Have we not come further five hundred years later?

#10 JimLucas

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Posted 01 February 2011 - 04:52 PM

First you said the topic was relevant at this forum,now you say it isn't.

I believe you have ignored a distinction I made and seriously misrepresented what I said.

Whether that was intentional or not, I don't know.
If you want me to be more specific, please PM me.

But taking my own advice, I will now end my participation in this discussion here in the concertina.net Forum.

#11 RatFace

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Posted 02 February 2011 - 09:48 AM

Fact: I have arthritis in my shoulder and elbow
Fact: Most pain medications and cortisone shots have an adverse effect on me.

Fact: I go to a physician who also practices acupuncture and osteopath. I go for about 4-6 treatments.
Fact: the arthritic aches and pains subside for 4-6 months.

I'm just saying...
rss


I'm sure everyone is very pleased for you that your aches and pains went away.

I'm not quite sure what Jim and Ardie are arguing about. I think both (well, everyone?) would agree that:

1. Some people have positive experiences following visits to physicians of all kinds.

2. Some conditions fluctuate a lot over time and depend on all sorts of things including mental state etc

3. Correlation doesn't imply cause and effect - example

Your facts as reported are not at all at odds with the (pretty much proven) fact that the high quality studies of acupuncture indicate that needle insertion at specific acupuncture points isn't better than placebo as a treatment for concertina-related(!) pain (Ardie gave a good reference as a starting point to check on the evidence).

This means that just because somebody gets better following acupuncture treatment, this doesn't imply that:

a. that person got better because of the acupuncture treatment

b. that person will likely get better following acupuncture treatment in the future

c. that any other person will likely get better following acupuncture treatment

I wrote in the last strength that I am suspicious of conclusions reached using the "in my experience..." argument when that experience consists of only a handful of cases (so a lot of random variation), complicated mechanisms (human physiology!), and psychological bias (people report certain things more than others etc).

Ardie is worried about people wasting their money, time and health by "filling in the blanks" following your "I'm just saying" line above, as indeed am I. It's only natural to use personal experience to deal with situations, because correlation = causation works a lot of the time - e.g. "I didn't tie my shoe-laces... I fell over... therefore I should ties my shoe-laces in future". However, it's a very bad approach in some cases, especially when there isn't a sensible plausible mechanism.

This doesn't mean anecdote-based correlation is useless. It's a good indicator of where to look next. That's exactly what has been done already though, and in the acupuncture (defined in terms of needling, rather than the whole acupuncture experience) case the verdict is pretty definite - there is no causation. Ardie gave a good reference for that. Do people disagree with those references/conclusions?

Whether or not acupuncture is a useful treatment as a cure for concertina-related problems is absolutely on-topic (surely), in which case so is the issue about how to interpret the evidence. It's even relevant to a lot of other concertina topics like how to learn/play etc, because there's a lot of "in my experience" stuff quoted there too.

It would be nice to stick that though, rather than discuss Galileo (or whatever)...

Edited by RatFace, 02 February 2011 - 09:49 AM.


#12 Stephen Chambers

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Posted 18 February 2011 - 11:32 AM

... then it morphed into an argument about medical philosophies in general and which authorities to believe in.


Jim,

I wonder if Ardie might not be in the medical profession, maybe in Sweden...

Edited by Stephen Chambers, 18 February 2011 - 02:54 PM.


#13 Kate Poole

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 06:49 PM

Sadly some infantile postings have led to this being locked. Can we continue here without the juvenilia?


Edited by Kate Poole, 05 March 2012 - 06:51 PM.


#14 Kate Poole

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Posted 05 March 2012 - 06:53 PM

Discussions are welcome IF we can agree to disagree and not insist on others following our one viewpoint, and IF it is concertina related. If it wanders off with respect to either criterion, it has to stop. This is a concertina site. If a topic really doesn't involve concertinas there must be a better way/place to hash it over. And if something you object to happens to you or your post, don't hit back, just report it to Paul and me. Thanks for helping out, everybody.

Ken


Hi, Ken! How are you?

Might I be the concertina playing acupuncturist you met?? (from the locked forum post) If not, I'd love to know the other one.

Yes, almost all the ailments everyone has mentioned can be treated with acupuncture. I treat a number of musicians and I consider these kinds pains to be in the "sports" medicine category. Or perhaps I should consider my sports injury patients as in the music category. When it comes to chest pains, definitely follow Yvonne's advice first.

There is a type of acupuncture called community acupuncture which is done in a semi-private or public setting, is quite inexpensive, and can handle many of the problems concertina players develop. I run such a clinic a couple of times a week from my office and it's great for musical type problems. I often recommend massage along with the acupuncture for this sort of thing.

This topic does concern concertinas because acupuncture can help all of us play in less pain.

FYI, I keep needles in my concertina case at all times!

Kate

#15 shelly0312

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Posted 25 March 2012 - 09:47 PM

So, I hate to throw gas on this fire BUT: I just spent a week with an interesting gal. She is a Physical Therapist...with 3 back surgeries. She acknowledges that she will probably never work in her given profession again; and WAS plagued with continued chronic back pain. Then she started some new courses on "dry needling". She saw it as an a opportunity to still be in her given profession, just a different slant. No, it is not the same as acupuncture. It is pretty interesting science. They discovered it with the injections of cortisone. They found out that just the insertion of the needles un-knotted the spamming muscles--the medicaments were just a side job. They do use super fine needles now, (not canula needles as needed for injections)--I suspect similar to acupuncture. Anyway, I know there is an active clinic here in Milwaukee, Wisconsin. But it is a pretty new therapy--the guy that teaches the course here is from out east. I think there is stuff on UTube--but I'm not sure it does justice to the "science" of it. However, for pains that tighten muscles and start the spasms that tend to be self perpetuating--further spasming other muscles, I've got to think that this might be a worthwhile avenue to explore. I think it is such a new science that you might be a "guinea pig" for some student, but the therapies might be very reasonable in price. Just trying to add to the arsenal for chronic pain. Always thinking of my pals.
Most sincerely, Shelly

Edited by shelly0312, 25 March 2012 - 10:04 PM.





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