Jump to content


Photo

Jeffries Scam On Ebay


  • Please log in to reply
74 replies to this topic

#37 Sandy Winters

Sandy Winters

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 180 posts
  • Location:Northern Illinois USA

Posted 15 June 2004 - 11:24 AM

Reporting fraudulent items is certainly not considered 'interference' by ebay and is encouraged by them thru their sytem. They are certainly responsible to their customers in that they must continue to offer a high quality product. It is not my opinion that they have a 'moral' responsibility to protect naive or stupid bidders. It is strictly a business decision for them. I do feel that we as a community (concertina players) do have at least some moral responsibility to try and protect each other. I'm certainly not a 'touchy, feely' kinda guy, but I would hope that if someone spotted me doing something really stupid that same person would feel just a bit obligated to warn me off.

#38 Sandy Winters

Sandy Winters

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 180 posts
  • Location:Northern Illinois USA

Posted 15 June 2004 - 11:32 AM

In this case, eBay does seem to have responded and removed the item.  In many cases, however, eBay is frustratingly unresponsive, which has frustrated some of us.

I agree that their response sometimes seems slow but I have never seen them not remove an item that I know to be fraudulent before the auction ran it's full time. Do you know of any specific cases?? I am sure it happens occasionally but I'm certainly not aware of 'many cases'.

#39 A.D. Homan

A.D. Homan

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 116 posts

Posted 15 June 2004 - 12:14 PM

[quote name='Sandy Winters' date='Jun 15 2004, 12:32 PM']
[/QUOTE]
I agree that their response sometimes seems slow but I have never seen them not remove an item that I know to be fraudulent before the auction ran it's full time. Do you know of any specific cases?? I am sure it happens occasionally but I'm certainly not aware of 'many cases'.[/QUOTE]


Sandy,

In every case that I have seen of similar fraudulent auctions, the response from eBay was to remove the auction, just as you say. To those observing these auctions (here, on other forums, etc.) the response seemed slow. My guess is that eBay considers their timeline for action to be anytime before the end of the auction (which is often only 3 days for these scams), which at least prevents buyers from paying for items that they will never receive.

While this is certainly a fast enough response to protect the innocent buyers, it is not fast enough to be effective in preventing the damage to the original auctions, if the two auctions overlap. In the case of this Jeffries, I don't think that there was an overlap, however, there was an overlap in a similar case with an Irish accordion a while back. I feel that the fraud auction affected the concurrent "real" auction in various ways. By the time that the fraud auction was removed, the real one had already ended, so, for instance, the fraud auction had drawn some potential bidders away from the real thing. While these bidders were protected, it certainly did not work in the real seller's interest. This was a clear-cut case where the exact photographs and description were swiped, including precise details. As far as I'm concerned, eBay's success in this case, and any other similar cases, particularly when the auctions overlap, was limited. This isn't an isolated event, but a trend that is increasingly becoming part of the eBay experience, particularly for items like certain types of musical instruements or antiques that sell for $500 or more. So, this might be an "occasional" occurence but if it is truly as rare as some seem to believe, then it would be in eBay's best interest to demonstrate how rare it is by posting some more recent statistics -- as far as I could find out, eBay has recently refused to state how many auctions it closes down, which I take to be a sign that it is often enough that they would view the statistic to be damaging to their business. (1 out of 1000? 1 out of 10000?) I guess it depends on how you view the stats. Out of the 3 jeffries auctions within the last weeks, 1 was fraudulent. [Added:Actually, I just read that the FBI estimates online auction fraud at 1 percent -- "a figure 400 times higher than what eBay contends." Cited from:
http://rg.ancients.i...uide/fraud.html
You can also read some (out of date) statistics at:
http://www.ifccfbi.g.../statistics.asp
The latter source indicates "less than 1%" of auctions are frauds. I know it seems insignificant, but if millions of auctions are occuring, even if only 0.1% are frauds, that is, in my opinion "many."]

FWIW, I do agree with you that going through the official channels is the most appropriate, if less satisfying, course of action, but I still give eBay poor marks for continuing to allow the loopholes and features that seem to be allowing for this to happen to begin with (poor ID/location confirmation, 3 day auctions, concealed bidder identities...). As I mentioned in other posts above, I think that there are ways that sellers can protect their auctions from being ripped off in this manner. As a buyer, I now correspond with sellers before even placing a bid. If there is anything suspicious, I simply don't bid. Some have given up on eBay entirely (and some never put any trust in it to begin with), which might not be a bad thing.
-Andy
[edited to include links to more information]

Edited by A.D. Homan, 15 June 2004 - 12:34 PM.


#40 JimLucas

JimLucas

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10128 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denmark

Posted 15 June 2004 - 12:36 PM

Another idea: what if concertina.net also maintained a registry of known eBay concertina sellers,...

So we would know who the regular dealers are. So what?

There are plenty of other honest sellers. Many are first-timers.
What we need is a way to attack only the dishonest sellers. when we know who they are.
... And a way to identify them, when they're not obvious. But that's much harder.

#41 Sandy Winters

Sandy Winters

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 180 posts
  • Location:Northern Illinois USA

Posted 15 June 2004 - 02:11 PM

:Actually, I just read that the FBI estimates online auction fraud at 1 percent -- "a figure 400 times higher than what eBay contends." Cited from:
http://rg.ancients.i...uide/fraud.html
You can also read some (out of date) statistics at:
http://www.ifccfbi.g.../statistics.asp

Hmmmmmm!!?? I for one won't be taking any estimates from government agencies very seriously. I seem to recall some recently well publicized errors.

"As a buyer, I now correspond with sellers before even placing a bid. If there is anything suspicious, I simply don't bid."

Sounds like a plan :-)

Edited by Sandy Winters, 15 June 2004 - 02:13 PM.


#42 Chris Timson

Chris Timson

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3490 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bradford on Avon

Posted 15 June 2004 - 03:43 PM

I agree, they don't make it easy. But go to this general purpose Contact Form, where there are several categories of offenses that can be reported.

Thanks for that. I've bookmarked the page for future use. In the meantime, now that attempt has been nipped off (at least until next time) here is a very nice looking Jeffries G/D that gives every sign of being genuine.

Chris

#43 Wrigglefingers

Wrigglefingers

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 101 posts
  • Location:Bath, UK

Posted 15 June 2004 - 05:57 PM

Hello Chaps

I've been reading with interest over the last few days and I'm intrigued by the statistics quoted which, to my mind, seem a long way out. I also watch for computerised sewing machines to buy for the various sewing groups I teach, but have become increasing concerned by the level of scamming on higher priced machines. Of these machine sales I currently estimate that about 70% are fraudulent sales. Most are removed before the end of sale but some are not. I know this is a little off topic but I strongly suspect that it illustrates that in some areas eBay is neither totally vigilant nor particularly responsible. Surely any sale where bidder identities are hidden and where money transfer is the preferred method of payment should be automatically suspended until the seller can provide good evidence of intent and goodwill? It seems to me that eBay have an increasingly difficult problem to resolve. I can't remember that last time I encouraged a student to actually buy from eBay because I've no confidence that the sale would be genuine nor have any of my colleagues.

I've regularly reported my doubts to eBay but faster action is always secured by a bidder called 'i think this is a scam' who regularly bids up sales. She ensures that she's the highest bidder against a proxy bidder (fake?) and the auctions are usually taken down very quickly afterwards. Scammers have responded by asking for bank and paypal details before accepting bids. I agree you'd need to be naive to so but it only needs one .......

Regards, Jill

#44 Stephen Chambers

Stephen Chambers

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4402 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 15 June 2004 - 10:48 PM

I see that eBay have closed this auction, a search for the Item number now comes up as an "Invalid Item" (which we all knew it was to begin with !)

My guess is that eBay considers their timeline for action to be anytime before the end of the auction (which is often only 3 days for these scams)


The acknowledgement I got from eBay stated that:

"We will look into the item(s) you have reported to us as quickly as possible. eBay's Community Watch team reviews all user reports of items, normally within 24 -36 hours."

How do you contact eBay anyway?

I clicked on "Safeharbour (Rules/Safety)" at the foot of the listing page, then "Prohibited & Restricted Items", & then "Community Watch" which led me to "Contact Us", where I chose the most appropriate heading "I didn't bid, but think a listing is fraudulent".

However, the reply I got said "Please note that future reports must be submitted through our Webform located at: http://pages.ebay.co...line/index.html". (Which takes you to exactly the same place :blink: !)

Wouldn't it be much simpler if they just had a "Report" tab on each listing, like we do on posts to this Forum ?

Edited by Stephen Chambers, 15 June 2004 - 10:55 PM.


#45 JimLucas

JimLucas

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10128 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denmark

Posted 16 June 2004 - 01:13 AM

To report fraudulent listings go to the ebay 'help' section. I can't remember exactly but I think what you want to look for is listings and 'other issues'. Keep looking, you will find the area to report fraudulent listings.

Sandy, I think you've just made somebody else's point. The link can be found, if you try hard enough and spend enough time at it, but they make it hard to find that link, not easy.

Why not have a very obvious "Contact eBay" button, leading to a list of topics, one of which is "Report a Suspected Fraud"?

I can guess why not. It's a mindset that's become increasingly common in recent years (or maybe I've just become increasingly aware of it?): It is considered more important to present an image that there are no problems than to actually insure that problems are eliminated. So, the reasoning goes, if people see a way to report frauds, it must be because there are frauds, but if they don't see it, that must be because there's no need for it. So you can provide the link, but make sure that people will only find it if they have independent reasons to look for it.

Edited to add: The evidence is right here. C.net members are finding it easier to get the link from each other than from eBay itself.

Edited again: In this looong thread I just noticed that somebody mentioned "just" going to the "Contact Us" screen. Well, I couldn't find the word "contact" on their main page. Then another post mentioned "Help". Yep, first "Help", and then "Contact Us" takes me to what I'd like to see, but to a person who is used to "Help" being synonymous with "Instruction Manual", that's not where I expected to find it. (I'm also quite used to "Help" being quite unhelpful, but that's a separate complaint, not specifically related to eBay.) In the future, of course, I will look under "Help" for anything I can't find elsewhere, but I still think "Contact Us" should be prominent on the main page,... as it is on many other web sites. In fact, I had come to consider that to be a WWW standard.

Edited by JimLucas, 16 June 2004 - 01:28 AM.


#46 JimLucas

JimLucas

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10128 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denmark

Posted 16 June 2004 - 02:04 AM

It is not my opinion that they have a 'moral' responsibility to protect naive or stupid bidders.

Maybe not. Nor even a "moral" obligation to protect sellers from fraudulent "competition". But they do have legal obligations, and I would suggest also a "moral" obligation to help uphold the law... just as any regular vendor or live auction house has an obligation to insure that they are not selling stolen goods, or banks (at least in America) to prevent money-laundering.

Note that it is common practice at auction houses that if someone claims a particular item to be fraudulent or stolen, the sale of that item is immediately suspended until an investigation can establish the true status. eBay seems to do the opposite, allowing an auction to continue unless they manage to establish its illegal nature before it ends.

It is strictly a business decision for them.

I consider that, in and of itself, to be a very poor argument.
After all, cheating and lying to stockholders, governments, and customers was "strictly a business decision" for the folks at Enron, until they got caught.

#47 JimLucas

JimLucas

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10128 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denmark

Posted 16 June 2004 - 04:20 AM

:Actually, I just read that the FBI estimates online auction fraud at 1 percent -- "a figure 400 times higher than what eBay contends." Cited from:
http://rg.ancients.i...uide/fraud.html
You can also read some (out of date) statistics at:
http://www.ifccfbi.g.../statistics.asp

Hmmmmmm!!?? I for one won't be taking any estimates from government agencies very seriously. I seem to recall some recently well publicized errors.

Maybe so, but in general I suspect the FBI estimates of crime to be on the low side, not the high side.
They like to advertise that they're successful in fighting crime.

More significant, I think, is our own experieince... and a bit of common sense. An average over all auctions is pretty well meaningless. The percentage of frauds -- especially copycat frauds -- is likely to be much higher among auctions expected to end above $2000 than among those expected to end below $20. Wrigglefingers has reported an observed rate of 70% for a certain category of expensive sewing machines. That it could reach such a level in any category is truly frightening!

We haven't yet reached that level with concertinas, but I don't think our statistics are lower than the "FBI" statistic of 1%. There have been at least two copycat frauds among auctions of English-made concertinas within the last month or so. Out of a total of how many auctions of English-made concertinas? The percentage goes higher if one excludes the basic 20-button Lachenals and other "low end" models. Somehow, I don't expect the frequency of such frauds (or of other kinds) to decrease in the near future.

Since computer comparison of photos can be done automatically within seconds or less, it seems to me irresponsible that it should take 2 days or more after notification to remove an auction which is fraudulent in such a manner. In fact, since they have a policy against copying photos, they should have a policy of checking photos -- and text -- for such copying before releasing an auction to the public.

#48 A.D. Homan

A.D. Homan

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 116 posts

Posted 16 June 2004 - 07:31 AM

[...] There have been at least two copycat frauds among auctions of English-made concertinas within the last month or so. Out of a total of how many auctions of English-made concertinas? [...]



This new auction just popped up:
3730841429

The text leads me to believe that it is legit, and that the seller might very well be a member of c.net. Are you here?

The lack of photo, the zero feedback, the lack of a reserve (combined with low starting bid) for such a high-end item, and the 3 day auction time, are causing bidders to be hesitant. Look at the number of hits the auction has received, compared to the number of bids. I also wrote to the seller yesterday and have not yet received a response.

Even if this is 100% legit, the auction might be suffering the from the previous fraud. Is this text from a previous auction? How does the seller expect to receive the highest price when s/he doesn't post pictures, and has no feedback.

I don't want to spoil someone else's auction, but they need to give us a bone here if they expect the characteristic high bidding to begin... otherwise there are only a few reasons to believe that this is _not_ a scam!

Doesn't anyone know anything about it?
-Andy
p.s. Jim, I'm sick of not getting "help" when there is a help button. In the most notorious cases that I've encountered (cell phone and DSL companies here), they actually make it impossible for you to find a phone number to use to contact the right customer service directory, forcing you to dial the main number and wade through 10 minutes of self-referential phone trees, eventually frustrating you enough that you hang up and save them the expense of hiring human beings to answer questions...

#49 Stephen Chambers

Stephen Chambers

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 4402 posts
  • Gender:Male

Posted 16 June 2004 - 07:54 AM

This new auction just popped up:
3730841429

This auction is already the subject of the thread "Jeffries Concertina".

The lack of photo, the zero feedback, the lack of a reserve (combined with low starting bid) for such a high-end item, and the 3 day auction time, are causing bidders to be hesitant.  Look at the number of hits the auction has received, compared to the number of bids.  I also wrote to the seller yesterday and have not yet received a response.

I too have sent the seller an email, more than 8 hours ago, and have received no reply.

#50 JimLucas

JimLucas

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10128 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denmark

Posted 16 June 2004 - 09:00 AM

p.s. Jim, I'm sick of not getting "help" when there is a help button.  In the most notorious cases that I've encountered (cell phone and DSL companies here), they actually make it impossible for you to find a phone number to use to contact the right customer service directory,....

Admitting that this is a digression...
...One of the worst "Help" systems, in my opinion, was a copy of Microsoft Front Page Express, from which I only ever succeeded in viewing one help page, no matter what I requested help on. What page? The one telling me how to purchase the "professional" version. :angry:

#51 Sandy Winters

Sandy Winters

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 180 posts
  • Location:Northern Illinois USA

Posted 16 June 2004 - 10:50 AM

I guess I'll just reiterate my original point, perhaps not made clear enough at the start. As a seller and buyer I am 100% satisfied with ebay, based on my own personal experiences. (Many transactions, some of them in the $1000 and above range.) I also have personal friends who have sold and purchased thousands of items, either privately or thru business (There are many many businesses using ebay as a marketplace) who are very satisfied with ebay's product. Ebay is the most successful on-line business in existence, and has been for many years. They are successful because they offer a very good product.

Is there the potential for the occassional fraud?? Of course. Can people occassionaly get ripped off?? I suppose so. However, I've never been a victim of such fraud. Nobody that I know has been a victim of such fraud. So far nobody on this thread has indicated that they actually know a 'real victim' of such fraud. All of the fraudulent concertina auctions that have been mentioned here and in earlier threads (at least one other I'm aware of) have been reported and dealt with in a reasonable manner. Yet you'd think from this thread that the sky is falling.

Are there actual victims?? Of course. Ebay handles millions of transactions every day.

Ebay can be tough territory. As I stated, I would never bid on an expensive item listed by a seller with zero feedback. That's just plain stupid. Just as there are criminals in this world there are stupid people in this world. Stupid people get hit crossing the street because they don't look both ways, but that shouldn't mean that I need to have a policeman hold my hand when I want to cross the street. I can take responsibility for myself, and I'll look both ways before I cross that street, or bid on an ebay item.

As for ebay's legal responibilities, do you actually think they have never had their legal position challenged?? That seems very unlikely to me. They are only the most profitible on-line company in history. I would assume (and it's only an assumption) that they've been sued up one side and down the other.

Some of the suggestions concerning making it easier to report 'issues' with certain listings would seem to be worth considering. But consider this. Making the reporting difficult enough might insure that only legitimate complaints from determined users get filtered down to the watchers at ebay. Making it too easy would simply flood the ebay watchers with malicious and frivolent complaints making the whole security system useless. Just a thought:-)

Generally I think the system works just fine. Keep a lookout for each other *and* take responsibility for yourself.

If I, or anyone I know, actually becomes a victim of fraud on ebay, without engaging in naive, stupid, or irresponsibe bidding, I will retract all I've said :-)

#52 Paul Groff

Paul Groff

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 344 posts

Posted 16 June 2004 - 12:32 PM

Sandy,

I found your arguments well-taken and appreciate your point of view. However I am even more sympathetic to the positions of those who, like me, have found ebay slow (to say the least) to put into effect even its own policies against abuse of its system.

Just one example from my experience. I put in a proxy bid. Another bidder (possibly in league with the seller or just malicious) repeatedly bid up, and finally over my amount, then retracted for the "reason" that he had been "ripped off on a previous auction." Thus the final price for me as "winning bidder" was my maximum bid. This is "improper bid retraction" by ebay's own definition, and possibly also "shill bidding," but ebay refused to cancel the auction despite the fact that my final auction price was much higher than it would have been without the actions of the malicious and/or shill bidder. Yes, I did repeatedly complain, to no avail, and ebay in fact advised the seller to take action against me should I not pay. I did finally pay the inflated price to maintain my feedback rating, but consider this very bad service on the part of ebay. Of course, the seller and ebay both benefited from this abuse, at my expense.

By the way, to those who have complained about "sniping," this is why sniping can be necessary - to prevent insincere bidders from running your bid to the maximum. At least sniping is legal under ebay's policies.

Paul

#53 JimLucas

JimLucas

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 10128 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denmark

Posted 16 June 2004 - 02:08 PM

I guess I'll just reiterate my original point, perhaps not made clear enough at the start. As a seller and buyer I am 100% satisfied with ebay, based on my own personal experiences.

I think a distinction needs to be made here between doing business through eBay and doing business with eBay.

It's the latter where people seem to have complaints, with reports ranging from lack of response to arrogance and even agression. I'm quite aware that we're not likely to see many aggressive reports of satisfaction. Nevertheless, they are widely reported to be more energetic in combatting those who "abuse" their services in attempts to prevent fraud than in attempts to commit fraud.

Fraud does occur. Not a lot, but reports from outside monitors seem to consistently indicate that it's much greater than eBay claims, even though eBay should be expected to be aware of more cases than are obvious to outside observers. Evidence (note that I did not say "proof") that they're lying doesn't inspire confidence and leaves me wondering why they should want to do so.

But one reason for the todo here is that we've seen two confirmed attempts at very expensive fraud involving concertinas in the last month, where we believe our sub-world has been free of such abuse previously. We feel that our "community" is being attacked, and we fear that the attacks will increase.

Some of us feel that taking two or more days to stop such a fraud is unreasonable when a human observer could confirm in minutes or less (and a computer in much less time) that it was unquestionably a fraud. This we interpret as indifference on the part of eBay.

Maybe it isn't. I can well imagine eBay delaying alerting the "seller" while they investigate more deeply, hopefully obtaining enough information to put a more permanent stop to their activities. But if so, it would inspire greater confidence if they would tell those who reported the fraud that this is what they are doing, rather than those people simply observing what appears to be inaction.

Is there the potential for the occassional fraud?? Of course.

Jill's report that she is observing a 70% fraud in a particular sector is pretty frightening, if it's true and if the honest people who wish to participate in that market have been reporting these frauds and they have continued unabated. I doubt that "occasional" is the right word for it. It also seems to me bad for eBay's business, and so it might make one wonder whether profits from the auction business really are the only thing driving their anti-fraud policy.

Can people occassionaly get ripped off?? I suppose so. However, I've never been a victim of such fraud.

I've never had polio or diphtheria. Nevertheless, I support agressive vaccination programs.

Nobody that I know has been a victim of such fraud. So far nobody on this thread has indicated that they actually know a 'real victim' of such fraud.

Not of this particular sort of fraud. Not yet. At least none who has admitted it. I'd rather not wait until one of us falls prey before we even discuss how to combat it. Though they have failed, we have now seen at least two attacks. They have either withdrawn or been repelled, but we can't be entirely sure which. We hope it was because of something eBay did. I would like to think that they would have done so even without our prodding, but I somehow doubt it. There are members here who have reported being subjected to other types of fraud attempts. We like to think of "the concertina community" as a place where we can leave our doors unlocked. We don't like discovering even attempted burglaries.

Ebay can be tough territory.

eBay tries hard to play down that fact.

As I stated, I would never bid on an expensive item listed by a seller with zero feedback. That's just plain stupid.

Not necessarily. It may be just plain ignorant. The difference between ignorant and stupid is that ignorant can (sometimes) be cured.

As for ebay's legal responibilities, do you actually think they have never had their legal position challenged??

I'm sure they have, many times and in many ways. And yet I am continually astounded that many points obvious to me never seem to arise in public discussions (I'm carefully not indicating any particular subjects here), and for that reason I find it unreasonable to assume that any particular one has not been generally overlooked. Also, I've many times discovered things undone because everyone involved assumed that they were so obvious that they must already have been done.

I would assume (and it's only an assumption) that they've been sued up one side and down the other.

Me, too. I wasn't suggesting a civil suit, but a criminal complaint. I suspect that too has been tried. I'm guessing that fighting one such suit -- even losing it -- wouldn't be a big deal for them, and that unless and until they lose significantly in such cases they won't pay much attention.

...consider this. Making the reporting difficult enough might insure that only legitimate complaints from determined users get filtered down to the watchers at ebay.

Unfortunately, it doesn't assure that all -- or even a significant percentage -- of legitimate complaints will get "filtered down". On the contrary, someone bent on mischief could discover the necessary procedure and then use it repeatedly to cause trouble, while those needing it for one-time use -- because they've just noticed something fraudulent -- could become discouraged trying to find out how to report what they found.

Generally I think the system works just fine. Keep a lookout for each other *and* take responsibility for yourself.

I will, but I'll also keep an eye out for the naive and defenseless, for those who can't take care of themselves, whatever the reason.

If I, or anyone I know, actually  becomes a victim of fraud on ebay, without engaging in naive, stupid, or irresponsibe bidding, I will retract all I've said :-)

Ridiculous! The validity of what you say shouldn't depend on personal acquaintance.

There are many points of view. Some of us think/hope that eBay, great though it is, can be improved. Nothing wrong with that. Some of us even fear that it is becoming less user friendly, not more so. Does eBay have the equivalent of a suggestion box? There is one opinion/suggestion I would like to pass to them.

#54 Sandy Winters

Sandy Winters

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 180 posts
  • Location:Northern Illinois USA

Posted 16 June 2004 - 04:06 PM

Paul, how long ago did you experience your problem with a potential shill bidder? I've seen the exact same thing happen within the last 6 months or so and in that case all bids by the high bidder disappeared when the high bid was retracted. So, effectively, the proxy bid of the second highest bidder wasn't run up any higher than the increment above the third highest bidder. Perhaps the seller took it upon himself to cancel all the bids of the high bidder to protect himself from negative feedback. If you actually think that the high bidder was a shill for the seller you certainly are justified in leaving negative feedback. I know that you are an experienced ebay user and that you understand the methodology of the proxy bids, how the proxy bid works when there is a reserve price, etc. I would would just comment, though, that some people are very confused by it and assume something sinister is happening because they don't understand it.

Jim, It's becoming harder and harder to understand your point. You seem to be saying the exact same thing I said originally, that I *do* feel that we, as a community, have a moral obligation to protect each other, and to try and protect the helpless (stupid *or* ignorant). Check my earliest posts. That's what I said!!??

You seem to have fallen into behavior that I thought was part of C.net's dark history. Endless quotes and nit-picking, getting in the last word.

The point at which you claim that my viewpoint is 'ridiculous' is the point at which I stop taking your viewpoint as seriously as I usually do.




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users