Jump to content


Photo

baritone concertinas


  • Please log in to reply
16 replies to this topic

#1 Jimmy P

Jimmy P

    New Member

  • Members
  • Pip
  • 2 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:San Francisco, CA

Posted 13 October 2010 - 12:31 PM

What role does the baritone concertina play in the grand sceme of

squeezedom ?

#2 ceemonster

ceemonster

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1076 posts

Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:00 PM

well, i'm only repeating what i've read others say here and elsewhere, no personal expertise, but i've repeatedly read it is better for song accompaniment because less quick due to the bigger size. also perhaps something to do with the timbre/pitch, others would have to weigh in on that one. but there was an edgeley baritone created not long ago that the new owner said was plenty adequate for session/dance playing, and i suspect the dippers would be as well. i love the way they sound, but would only be using them for irish tunes, so if they are slower, perhaps having one would be a super-expensive "extra" that i shouldn't invest in. but i would love to have one.

i'm also wondering---are concertinas like ukes, and there would be a couple of others to fit between the concert ones and the baritones? would there be a tenor?

#3 NoNaYet

NoNaYet

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 183 posts

Posted 13 October 2010 - 02:02 PM

This may not be the most substantive answer you get, but any chance to post a video of mine is to be taken. Here she is, filmed by Bob Tedrow before he shipped it.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=w4IOTStb6eA

I elected for a baritone because I was having a high frequency hearing problem due to a small brain tumor which made some frequencies actually painful. The problem has releived somewhat following treatment and now I am hopeing to get a standard someday.

NNY

#4 JimLucas

JimLucas

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9157 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denmark

Posted 13 October 2010 - 05:41 PM

What role does the baritone concertina play in the grand sceme of

squeezedom ?

The role of the aristocrat, I think. ;)

Baritones are far outnumbered by the common squeezefolk, and are selective in their associations.

The great majority are elegant and well groomed.

They tend to be "richer", and develop deep, cultured voices.

#5 JimLucas

JimLucas

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9157 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denmark

Posted 13 October 2010 - 06:57 PM

i'm also wondering---are concertinas like ukes, and there would be a couple of others to fit between the concert ones and the baritones? would there be a tenor?

Among concertinas of all sorts (but I suspect deriving from terminology first applied to the English concertina), "baritone" is used to mean "one octave lower in pitch than the 'usual' sort." So among English concertinas a "baritone" would be an octave lower than a standard "treble". Among anglos, a "baritone" is normally an octave below a standard C/G, though one could speak of a "baritone" D/A or Bb/F. "Baritone" duets seem to be extremely rare, though I think a few entries in the Wheatstone ledgers are so designated.

Among English concertinas, the name "tenor" (or "tenor-treble") is applied to instruments with the bottom of their range approximately halfway between the standard ("treble") and the "baritone". The same concept could reasonably be applied to a duet, though the owners of such instruments don't seem to be in the habit of calling them "tenor". Anglos of similar range aren't normally described as "tenor"; instead they're just known by their primary keys, usually G/D, though possibly F/C or Ab/Eb.

well, i'm only repeating what i've read others say here and elsewhere, no personal expertise, but i've repeatedly read it is better for song accompaniment because less quick due to the bigger size.

I think you've confused two separate claims. Your statement seems to imply that for singing it's better to have a slower instrument. Or were you trying to suggest baritones would be too slow for tune playing, but adequate for singing, because song accompaniment doesn't require as much speed?

also perhaps something to do with the timbre/pitch, others would have to weigh in on that one.

They have, many times. Many individuals seem to feel that a lower-pitched instrument will (or does) sound better with their voices. I don't find that generalization to be true for my own voice, and I know a number of singers who do wonderful things with a treble English or standard C/G anglo.

but there was an edgeley baritone created not long ago that the new owner said was plenty adequate for session/dance playing, and i suspect the dippers would be as well.

Not just those two makes. I think Mark Evans has commented on his use of a Morse baritone in sessions. Any quality baritone in good condition, whether a vintage or a modern hybrid, should be quite fast enough for all but the most severe "horse-race" playing.

i love the way they sound, but would only be using them for irish tunes, so if they are slower, perhaps having one would be a super-expensive "extra" that i shouldn't invest in. but i would love to have one.

I think there are three likely reasons for the baritiones' reputation for sluggishness:
  • Lower quality baritones may indeed be slower, from having reeds of lesser quality than those in the better models, such as Edeophones and Aeolas.
  • I also suspect that many restored vintage baritones have not had the "set" of their reeds properly adjusted, and so they are not as fast as they could be. The optimum profile for low-pitched reeds is quite different from that of high-pitched ones.
  • Baritones generally have larger bellows, which require more "punch" than smaller bellows to get the same change in pressure. I suspect that those who normally play the smaller standard concertinas and then have a brief chance to pick up and try a baritone often just don't push hard enough on the bellows, and that this results in slow response.


#6 Chris Timson

Chris Timson

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3353 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bradford on Avon

Posted 14 October 2010 - 02:29 AM

Well, this is apposite! My Dipper baritone was made specifically for song accompaniment at my request, so Colin gave it a deep rich tone reminscent of of a harmonium. It is slower than, say, my Jeffries G/D largely due to the epically sized reeds. However it is not too slow for tune playing, as Jody makes abundantly clear in these recordings which I have recently posted about here.

Chris

#7 Steve Mansfield

Steve Mansfield

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 538 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Whaley Bridge, Derbyshire

Posted 14 October 2010 - 04:17 AM

I've been hankering after a Morse baritone EC for a while now, and intend to use it for tune-playing (and if you'd heard me sing, you'd know why).

The times I've played them in shops and on festival stands I've found them more than quick-speaking and responsive enough for playing tunes on. An acquaintance also has a beautiful Dipper baritone EC, and that is also plenty quick enough.

As others have stated, though, I don't know whether it would respond fast enough for the upper end of the Speed Is Everything market: but as I play tunes for dancing and enjoyment, rather than for setting land speed records, I can't see that being a problem :)



#8 buikligger

buikligger

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 125 posts
  • Location:Belsele, Belgium

Posted 14 October 2010 - 07:33 AM

Is there someone playing an EC baritone in Irish trad sessions? I play a treble EC but was advised to play an octave lower than the two highest octaves I use on my treble. So I consider swapping to a baritone and use the same fingering patterns.

#9 Chris Timson

Chris Timson

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3353 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bradford on Avon

Posted 14 October 2010 - 09:35 AM

I've been hankering after a Morse baritone EC for a while now, and intend to use it for tune-playing (and if you'd heard me sing, you'd know why).


My partner Anne often uses her Morse baritone English when playing in our North West morris band. It's excellent for the purpose.

Chris

#10 koeter

koeter

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 16 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Graz / Austria

Posted 14 October 2010 - 04:43 PM

If any is interested in a Morse Baritone the mine is still on sale. Look at "For sale Morse Baritone EC". The price at Music Room is now 2,099.00. What would be a fair price?
Juergen

#11 Geoff Wooff

Geoff Wooff

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1561 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:France

Posted 15 October 2010 - 02:06 AM

Is there someone playing an EC baritone in Irish trad sessions? I play a treble EC but was advised to play an octave lower than the two highest octaves I use on my treble. So I consider swapping to a baritone and use the same fingering patterns.


I use an EC Baritone for playing in Irish sessions , but it is a Baritone/Treble so the same fingering and range is avaiable at the treble end. Then it is possible to play an octave below,like some fidlers do, but because of the range, down to G an octave below the bottom string of the fiddle, it is possible to play 'octaves' in all the Irish fiddle music keys.
OK, a fingering reversal is needed which would not be so on a true Baritone (that would play same fingering as treble but sound an octave deeper) but it is not as difficult as might be imagined, even at Reel speed, with a little practice.

So this Baritone/Treble is like a Tennor/Treble but with an extra row of buttons on the bottom and without the very highest row of the Treble. So it has four octaves from the highest G on a 48 Treble down to four octaves below. Oh, also it does not lack for speed even in the bottom ranges, but then I do not like 'stupid fast' sessions.

I find this Baritone/Treble is such a usefull instrument that I think one of the current makers ought to consider producing it.
Geoff.

Edited by Geoff Wooff, 15 October 2010 - 02:07 AM.


#12 Chris Timson

Chris Timson

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3353 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Bradford on Avon

Posted 15 October 2010 - 02:07 AM

Streuth! They're over-egging it a bit, aren't they? Current price at Button Box is $2150, or 1340. Add 20% for import duty gives you 1608. It'd be cheaper to fly over to Massachusetts and buy an Albion there than buy it from Music Room! Sorry, but that has shocked me.

Chris

#13 ceemonster

ceemonster

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1076 posts

Posted 15 October 2010 - 04:41 PM

well, this has been such an informative and fun thread.....

Edited by ceemonster, 15 October 2010 - 04:42 PM.


#14 michael sam wild

michael sam wild

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 2638 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Shireoaks, Notts, UK

Posted 20 October 2010 - 04:47 AM

Geoff , I like the idea of a C/G with the 'shift to the right' ie more bass and less dog scaring notes.

That would be great for singing to.

Last night at the Royal Concertinas I had a go on Mark Davis's lovely Dipper Baritone in D/A ( mid row D , inner row A)

It was great to sing to and had that church harmonium sound that was referred to by Chris.

Geoff wright played a low accompaniment to tunes in D and it was great too.


One for my long term wish list, granted it was a bit slow for tunes but for more leisurely accompanimant it sounds superb.

#15 Geoff Wooff

Geoff Wooff

    Heavyweight Boxer

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 1561 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:France

Posted 20 October 2010 - 10:35 AM

[quote name='michael sam wild' timestamp='1287568052' post='117729']
Geoff , I like the idea of a C/G with the 'shift to the right' ie more bass and less dog scaring notes.


Yes Michael,

and my dog hates those high notes,she is happy with the Baritone too.

Geoff.

#16 shelly0312

shelly0312

    Chatty concertinist

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 299 posts
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:SE wisconsin USA

Posted 20 October 2010 - 11:04 AM

(Is there someone playing an EC baritone in Irish trad sessions? I play a treble EC but was advised to play an octave lower than the two highest octaves I use on my treble. So I consider swapping to a baritone and use the same fingering patterns. )

I was having the same thoughts. And have been sort of languishing for a 45 button Goerdie, thinking the fingering would be easiest to switch over. Now, I relooked and am in a secondary quandry: the Goerdie does look a LOT bigger than the Albion? Do you think these are so hot that Button Box cannot keep any on shelves for demo?? Or would this be a worthwhile junket to view in live person? Michelle in SE Wis, USA

#17 JimLucas

JimLucas

    Ineluctable Opinionmaker

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9157 posts
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Denmark

Posted 20 October 2010 - 02:52 PM

Do you think these [Button Box' Geordie] are so hot that Button Box cannot keep any on shelves for demo?? Or would this be a worthwhile junket to view in live person? Michelle in SE Wis, USA

I would phone or email them and ask, rather than take the risk of a "drop in" at that distance.






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users