[m3838]

Quote

So, I'm sorry Mischa; I couldn't dissagree more with you.

Actually you do agree with me on, say, 98.73%.
Not sure if you were answering to me.
We all remember "Blues Brothers", right?
"we play ALL kinds of music, Country AND Western".
I guess there is British equivalent of this: Irish AND English.
A mistake in initial post was to ask for universal concertina able to play "eclectic" music. By "eclectic" it was meant same tunes, only melody with thrills between two hands and melody on the right with accompaniment on the left. Easy answer, any 30 button Anglo is capable of both plus much more. Done deal, question answered.
Sounds like you are not really listening to accordion music. There's plenty of styles and types of accordions around to choose from. Musette is only one and not most widely used. You probably only deal with amateurs, who have entry level instruments, not able to vary the loudness. Same goes with concertina. There is nothing more annoying to me than super loud myawing of Anglo with even louder honks here and there (aka "embellishments").
Here are a few accordion examples, that should put all our disagreements aside. I wish all concertina players to be 1/10th of that quality, whatever the basis for judgement is.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Z0nfW_dDNrc
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=r7yvy0v2S88
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=V009hReC3CI
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=BNHsM4o_kFM
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=8qOcV_mTFPc


Enough is enough. I am greatly surprised what people mean when they say what they say.

[Fergus_fiddler]

m3838, on 24 February 2010 - 03:16 PM, said:

You probably only deal with amateurs, who have entry level instruments, not able to vary the loudness. Same goes with concertina. There is nothing more annoying to me than super loud myawing of Anglo with even louder honks here and there (aka "embellishments").
Here are a few accordion examples, that should put all our disagreements aside. I wish all concertina players to be 1/10th of that quality, whatever the basis for judgement is.
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=Z0nfW_dDNrc
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=r7yvy0v2S88
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=V009hReC3CI
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=BNHsM4o_kFM
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=8qOcV_mTFPc


Enough is enough. I am greatly surprised what people mean when they say what they say.

Yes, I probably deal with amateurs... who own Bugari accordions up to 4000 euro.

Is obvious you never played in an Irish music session; where the role of the accordionist is, most of times, very self centered for to pay attention about what other musicians are playing.

And almost all of videos don't impress me; the virtuoso who plays solo - funnily enogh, in spanish means 'alone', too - has his own niche. Not my cup of tea, though.

If you really read my post, you'll notice I never said anything about other types of music but the one who concerns to me. accordions and too many bodhrans are the perfect pest to ruin an otherwise good ITM session.

Cheers,

Fer

This post has been edited by Fergus_fiddler: 25 February 2010 - 03:58 AM

[m3838]

Quote

And almost all of videos don't impress me; the virtuoso who plays solo - funnily enogh, in spanish means 'alone', too - has his own niche. Not my cup of tea, though.

Wow! You've got nerve, I must say.
I showed you an excellent clip of three Irish girls playing perfectly Irish music with perfectly tasteful and dry tuned piano accordion, but you still insist that your personal experience, on which you based your opinion, must prevail.
I argued a few points of yours:
a. Accordion is wet tuned and can ruin ITM session by it's sound. - I showed you clips with dry tuned accordions in Irish setting. You shrug.
b. accordions are loud. - I showed you clips where dynamics range from whisper to thunder. You shrug.
c. Accordionists don't pay attention to others. - I showed you clip with three girls in perfect unison.
d. Accordion has inadequate accompaniment. - I showed you Irish clips where accompaniment is very adequate.

Peter Soave is one of the best Accordionists in the US. He can play circles around most Irish session musicians put together. You can't hold his cup of tea but he CAN hold yours. That's the thing. When he fell in love with Tango, he bought himself a bandoneon and mastered in in a year or so. Now he's playing circles around most native Argentinian bandoneon players.
We clearly need to distinguish our personal favorite style from pure craftsmanship of those, whose personal style is "not our cup of tea".
I can't stand Shnidke and alike, would I doubt an artistry of the orchestra?
It reminds me of an old Jewish joke, something like:
Two Jews meet and one says: "You know, your "Eine Kleine Nachtmusic" is nothing special."
-"Oh, you listen to Mozart?"
-"No, I heard Rabinovich humming".
P.S.
I'm Jewish, no need to panic.
Here is wet tuned irish Accordion and fiddle, with accompaniment. May not be your cup of tea, but if play like them, my hat is off to you.
There you go: fat tuned piano Accordion and a fiddle - let us all be half of that.
And now is classic Irish off the shelf performance with very tasty accompaniment.
Please tell me above are not your cups of tea, therefore Accordion is annoying, wet tuned, loud with inadequate accompaniment.

[Woody]

L, on 24 February 2010 - 03:00 PM, said:

I just wanted to throw in my opinion that the anglo system is not necessarily better for learning by ear.

My impression is that which system you choose depends a lot on how your brain works. For me Anglo is obvious, English confusing. YMMV

On the subject of music types on the Anglo, presumably the large numbers sold in Germany & Italy are not solely being used for playing Irish music?

[Fergus_fiddler]

m3838, on 25 February 2010 - 12:46 PM, said:

Wow! You've got nerve, I must say.
I showed you an excellent clip of three Irish girls playing perfectly Irish music with perfectly tasteful and dry tuned piano accordion, but you still insist that your personal experience, on which you based your opinion, must prevail.

Yes, I've got quite a bit of nerve because I've got quite an opinion. By the way, if you think that Comhaltas is representative about what REAL irish music is, you know even less about the subject I thought... Comhaltas is, indeed, doing very much to kill ITM by standarising it and making young children competitive, leave alone their nationalistic component... I think it's disgusting, for to say the least.

I don't post on any of your threads about bayan,eastern european music or any other subject I don't know about... seems it's not the same to you.

And it seems you're not familiar - and seems, amused - with the british expression It's not my cup of tea. Well, it means, just in case you don´t know it It's not of my taste. Maybe are you suggesting I've to share your taste? Are you the owner of the absolute truth? I'm sorry, but almost certainly you're not. I only pointed that a 'tina is not an accordion in any way, thanks goodness, having into account there're enough of that boxes around, thanks.

Only was talking about a very particular experience in a very particular context.

Cheers, my dear troll.

Fer

[m3838]

Here's what the initial set-up was:
"My musical tastes are eclectic, I mostly play folk, but I have recently realized my first memory of a concertina (or accordian) was from my dad's record of Michel Legrand's I Love Paris. That's probably not what most of you play, I'm guessing. I loved it as a child..."
Eclectic doesn't necessarily means English AND Irish.
To such a person with eclectic tastes it matter very little whether true believer thinks an instrument is fitting or not in "true" tradition. Especially when I can easily find many more clips of excellent accordion playing in your tradition, from within your tradition, by people who learned Gaelic from their mothers, and who you seem to dismiss as carriers of tradition, based on your selective experience. Once again I want you to pay attention to few aspects I'm arguing.
I'm NOT in any way dismiss existence of Irish musical tradition, nor devalue it's appeal around the World, nor I am imposing my tastes on anybody.
I'm simply showing you error of your opinion about the role of accordion in ITM.
You argue that accordions are
1. Loud
2. Wet tuned
3. Have unsuited accompaniment
4. Ruin an ITM session
I showed you examples of accordions that are
1. Not loud
2. Dry tuned
3. Played with tasteful accompaniment or without one at all
4. Certainly don't ruin anything given the skill and fame of a player
In addition I showed you a variety of accordions, beginning with Irish Chromatic (or British Chromatic), CBA and Piano accordions, big and small.
Whether it's your cup of tea or not, you just can't reasonably dismiss my points. Competitiveness or not, it has nothing to do with unique qualities of accordion as an instrument and it's suitability to whatever musical culture. I even showed you a clip with an Irish guy playing Irish music on that dreaded wet tuned PA and his playing was very good.
What is the reason to downgrade an excellent player?
Cheers, Oh open minded One.

This post has been edited by m3838: 27 February 2010 - 05:57 PM

[Daniel Hersh]

Woody, on 26 February 2010 - 05:31 AM, said:

L, on 24 February 2010 - 03:00 PM, said:

I just wanted to throw in my opinion that the anglo system is not necessarily better for learning by ear.

My impression is that which system you choose depends a lot on how your brain works. For me Anglo is obvious, English confusing. YMMV

On the subject of music types on the Anglo, presumably the large numbers sold in Germany & Italy are not solely being used for playing Irish music?

Large numbers of Anglos are made in Italy (and even more in China) and some are made in Germany (and many were made there in the past) -- but I believe that most of this production is/was for export in all three countries. Or do you know something that I don't?

[Kautilya]

m3838, on 27 February 2010 - 05:39 PM, said:

I had such a nice welcome from the Leyland Accordion club tonight that I told them they would find this debate quite interesting
They offer a warm welcome to tinas and melodeons (and even harmonicas) handled by beginners or Albert Hall performers.

**
Here's my note transmogrified from Melnet:

Going to check out what is said to be very warm welcome....Anyone else near there who is going? 2000 to 2300

The Priory Club, Broadfield Drive, Leyland, Lancashire, England, PR25 1QN

http://www.accordionclub.co.uk/
Verdict
Very welcoming and laid back - half a dozen beginners being helped on their own by the accordionisti, around a very very large room (with a stage they use on regular concert nights) a silvery light drum combo in another corner, a melodeon diddling away with great expertise and accompanied by some v good tina fingering, plus several very helpful hands to trace a mysterious leak on my bass section..... and a good mild shandy. Melodeons and tinas welcome (and harmonicas, including a very classy Larry Adler professional chromatic).
I also alerted them to the rather hot debate about accordions and tinas going on at
http://www.concertin...accordion&st=18
I don't see the problem myself - I love em all!

This post has been edited by Kautilya: 03 March 2010 - 07:32 PM

[Fergus_fiddler]

Er...

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[Kautilya]

Fergus_fiddler, on 04 March 2010 - 12:35 PM, said:

Er...

Brill!!!!!! The fiddlers always have the best flourishes - tku Pandora's brother....

actually that own brand is my breakfast favourite - it's the munchiness of the decaying cat gut strings which beat those metal Evah Pirazzi strings at every mouthful