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Height of Hand / Palm Rest


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#1 Lawrence Reeves

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 04:33 PM

I am curious as to the height of the palm rest on anglo concertinas. I personally see this as a big difference in feel between my Suttner Bb/F and my vintage Shakespeare C/ G. To me, the height of the palm can influence the ability of comfortably playing in all three rows on an anglo. I will include my measurements as soon as I get to my instruments this weekend.

#2 michael sam wild

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 06:04 AM

Peter Trimming mentioned elsewhere that the palm should be arched. I have noticed that Dippers seem to have a raised bar which looks comortable.

#3 gavdav

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 07:58 AM

Peter Trimming mentioned elsewhere that the palm should be arched. I have noticed that Dippers seem to have a raised bar which looks comortable.


Bob Tedrow also makes "high" anglo handles which I found very comfortable compared to the traditional style. I tend to keep my straps a bit slacked and arch my hands/fingers.

#4 Dana Johnson

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 09:56 AM

Peter Trimming mentioned elsewhere that the palm should be arched. I have noticed that Dippers seem to have a raised bar which looks comortable.


Bob Tedrow also makes "high" anglo handles which I found very comfortable compared to the traditional style. I tend to keep my straps a bit slacked and arch my hands/fingers.

With hands coming in so many different shapes and sizes, it is crazy to imagine one size should fit all. Long fingers need a higher rest to get the same finger to button positioning short fingers have on a low rest. Wide palms need a longer rest to keep the straps from putting too much pressure on the nerves that go along the side of your index finger. It is nice when Makers give you choices or make adjustable rests. If you have an old concertina, you have to live with what it has or get a new set made you can swap out for the old ones ( saving the originals of course ). Having the right size rests can make playing much easier and more comfortable.
Dana

#5 michael sam wild

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 07:55 AM

I read quite a bit by Goran Rahm on this, in my recently arrived ICA booklets. PICA p 62 has a nice photo of a Duet with thumbstrap, wriststrap and domed palm rest!

Looked good for ski grip straps tooPosted Image !.

Also can't you use stiff rubber foam , like pipe insulation material?

Edited by michael sam wild, 31 January 2010 - 07:59 AM.


#6 david fabre

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 03:42 PM

On my Linota, when doning the renovation, Colin Dipper changed the hand bars to higher ones.
They are now 2cm (not sure what was the initial height)
David

#7 Ken_Coles

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Posted 31 January 2010 - 09:20 PM

Also can't you use stiff rubber foam , like pipe insulation material?


Well, I do. Maybe others did this before me, but if so, I got to independently reinvent it. I once ordered an instrument from a custom maker, who agreed to put raised handles on it. But he forgot when the time came, and it has foam pipe insulation on it also!

Ken

#8 PeterT

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 04:32 AM

Peter Trimming mentioned elsewhere that the palm should be arched. I have noticed that Dippers seem to have a raised bar which looks comortable.


When discussing the specification, with Colin Dipper, back in 1989, he said that many people were favouring the contoured hand-rests, and found them comfortable. I went along with this idea, but this is the only aspect of my Dipper with which I am not 100% happy. I prefer slacker straps, and the facility to move the hand, on the hand-rest, to get the "correct" tension on the strap.

However, it is a personal thing.

#9 michael sam wild

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Posted 01 February 2010 - 07:23 AM

Also can't you use stiff rubber foam , like pipe insulation material?


Well, I do. Maybe others did this before me, but if so, I got to independently reinvent it. I once ordered an instrument from a custom maker, who agreed to put raised handles on it. But he forgot when the time came, and it has foam pipe insulation on it also!

Ken



Nice one Ken!

#10 hjcjones

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 04:06 AM

This discussion seems to have moved to Mudcat, where Guran is advocating larger rests, larger straps and even thumbstraps for anglos and duets His argument is that it provides more stability. However I'm concerned that it would restrict being able to move the hand in the straps in order to execute particular fingerings. It's a trade-off between movement and stability, and so far as I'm concerned, freedom of movement takes priority - I can find other ways to stabilise the instrument.

My problem with Guran's idea is that I've never felt that the things he lists as defects with the current design are actually problems.

#11 Lawrence Reeves

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 08:49 AM

One thing that I am noticing about the feel of height difference is that hand size can have affect. I am also working on the idea of the knuckle that is connected to the palm of the hand can act with either a single action or double action. The double action is the curl of the finger due to movement in the second and third joints of the finger. Visualizing the action of a lever when the button is pressed it has one pivot point to ensure a quick action to open and close a pad. It is hard to get this much precision out of the action needed by a human finger to press a button. Not sure if this really matters with how we approach playing a concertina or not.

#12 ragtimer

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 11:45 AM

I am curious as to the height of the palm rest on anglo concertinas. I personally see this as a big difference in feel between my Suttner Bb/F and my vintage Shakespeare C/ G. To me, the height of the palm can influence the ability of comfortably playing in all three rows on an anglo. I will include my measurements as soon as I get to my instruments this weekend.


I and some other Hayden Duet players agree that the handrest bars are too low on the Elise starter model. And the straps are too sloppy, not enough tension. We advocate making another hole or two in the adjustable straps, or putting pipe foam insulation on the handrests.
--mike k.

#13 marien

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 07:12 PM

I think there is not much curve if I make a 90 degree angle between hand and fingers and I donīt think my hands are exceptionally shaped.

Partly I think it is "getting used to". As for my crane concertinas, I got used to find all buttons on my lachenal blindfolded but I play more on the Crabb 71b eola. The fingering positions are different, The bars are higher and the distance to the rows is greater. As I tried the lachenal today it seems to be more difficult to press notes on the lowest row on the left hand / although I must say that I like the raised ends.

I guess that the bar on the 55b lachenal (the new model type with raised ends) is high enough but the problem is that (compared to the eola) the lowest row on the right hand side is close to the bar. But what can you do if there are 30 buttons to place on one end of a 6.5 inch concertina with 60 reeds which are placed on the outer circle of the reed pan on the right hand side. There is not much freedom to put the buttons elsewhere...

#14 Ross

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Posted 02 February 2010 - 09:12 PM

I am curious as to the height of the palm rest on anglo concertinas. I personally see this as a big difference in feel between my Suttner Bb/F and my vintage Shakespeare C/ G. To me, the height of the palm can influence the ability of comfortably playing in all three rows on an anglo. I will include my measurements as soon as I get to my instruments this weekend.


I and some other Hayden Duet players agree that the handrest bars are too low on the Elise starter model. And the straps are too sloppy, not enough tension. We advocate making another hole or two in the adjustable straps, or putting pipe foam insulation on the handrests.
--mike k.


I've just started making noise with the Elise, not really playing it yet. I'll have to agree that the whole handrest/strap assembly leaves something to be desired. My hands are on the small side which may play a part in it. My idea is to make adjustable bars so I can move them all over the place if need be. I may also experiment on adding a support that would rest most of the weight on the ball of the thumb. Because my hands are small, I also have trouble reaching the higher notes with my pinkie, so the adjustable bars would allow me try reducing the angle between the bar and the buttons, making it easier to use the pinkies.

#15 hjcjones

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 04:03 PM

Goran has pm'd me on Mudcat to point out that he is no longer allowed to post on here, and so is unable to respond to my comments. I should make it clear that I have not tried his system, so my comments are pure conjecture.

I am happy to point this out and to suggest that if you would like to see his comments to please take a look at the Mudcat discussion.

#16 Jim Albea

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Posted 03 February 2010 - 10:50 PM

I found the handle on the Elise to be too low. I added about 1/4" inch to the height. It is much better now.

Here's a photo:

elise-handle.jpg

#17 Michael Marino

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 04:51 AM

Okay I wen t to Mudcat and read the thread. While some what informative (a much as listening to a missionary who won't accept discussion). I find his points to be a repeat again and again. While parts of it I agree with many I don't. Now some might ask why I have the right to disagree with an "expert" in the field of ergonomics. Well let's see a Doctorate in Chiropractic from one the the highest ranked schools in the field. Over eight years in practice heavily dealing with upper extremity injury and rehab. Plus all but exam for my specialization in sports sciences that is recognized at the IOC level for being able to practice. That and dealing with athletes and musicians from the amateur to the full on professional.

While some of his statements are extremely valid and i will defend them myself some of his other statements are left field material. the hand works as a kinetic whole and while we can isolate which muscle group we will use for a function we can not isolate the tension and dynamic balancing that will happen within the hand and fore arm/ elbow to maintain stability with that action. It has been shown again and again in running that a ridge shoe damages the foot of the runner. This is why modern competition running shoes are extremely flexible.

In Rock climbing taping between the joints is done only to re-enforce an area that is showing weakness and only when there is no other option as it creates a stress point that will tend to allow failure of the surrounding structure.

With playing the speed with one must move the hand to bridge different notes and chords makes any restricting rigidity a cause certain for further damage to the structures of the hand wrist and fore arm.

I wish him the best of luck and parts of his foundation are extremely sound. Parts on the other hand need some serious re-thinking. Which from the way he write I unfortunately doubt will happen.

Michael

#18 Frank Edgley

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 10:03 AM

This discussion seems to have moved to Mudcat, where Guran is advocating larger rests, larger straps and even thumbstraps for anglos and duets His argument is that it provides more stability. However I'm concerned that it would restrict being able to move the hand in the straps in order to execute particular fingerings. It's a trade-off between movement and stability, and so far as I'm concerned, freedom of movement takes priority - I can find other ways to stabilise the instrument.

My problem with Guran's idea is that I've never felt that the things he lists as defects with the current design are actually problems.


I am assuming that this is the same person who frequented www.concertina.net a few years ago. It seems from my recent readings on Mudcat and the Anglo site that nothing much has changed. No matter what anyone says, somehow you are wrong and he goes into great detail to tell you why. As a maker, I have concluded that much of what he has to say about concertina design is impractical, and unneccessary, and would be more suitable for some sort of button accordion. Especially his design comments on recent Mudcat posts suggest that he has limited experience, or performance expertise with anglo concertinas. If he has good ideas, these are obscured by his insistence that everything he says is correct and everything you might say (if you disagree) is wrong.




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