8 replies to this topic

[Chris Timson]

Take a look at this Crabb on eBay. A nice little box, I expected it to go very easily. But bidding ended at under $1935, that's under 1200 quid. Am I missing something? Or are people becoming (at last) more cautious in their bidding on eBay?

Chris

PS I see with this post I have suddenly become an "advanced member". Isn't that posh? I wonder what lies ahead? Galactic superbeing? Super-intelligent shade of the colour blue? I can't wait|

Edited by Chris Timson, 29 August 2003 - 01:21 AM.

[Howard Mitchell]

Chris,

I recently sold a similar Crabb. They don't sell well in the Irish-playing market but they are popular in the Morris market being light and bright-sounding. This comes from having aluminium reed shoes and end plates. They are also sometimes sprung rather heavily but of course you can adjust this.

This was the instrument that featured in the waveforms on my site at http://www.hgmitchel...20Waveforms.htm
I no longer have either of the instruments I used to produce the waveforms, perhaps it's time I repeated the exercise with the current crop.

A similar one, in excellent condition, from a reputable source, sold on e-bay recently for 1700 pounds. I guess about 1500 pounds is the going rate for this type of instrument.

regards

Howard Mitchell

[Chris Ghent]

As the highest bidder was Barleycorn Concertinas that would mean he thought there was at least a mark up in it at that price...

Chris

[JimLucas]

Some instruments go for more than I would expect, some for less. Sometimes the discrepancies are surprising. I think eBay item #2553125221, which went for just over £100 is an example. Even though it's brass reeded and could well benefit from restoration, it was apparently playable. I would have expected it to fetch at least £300. (I like to think it went to somebody who will play it, rather than just resell it.)

Of course, I could be completely wrong about its value. I'm not a dealer, and I'm not as experienced as I wish at judging market value, even on instruments I'm able to examine personally.

[Greg Jowaisas]

Supply and demand. One person's experience: As a newcomer to the "Irish" concertina world I was floored by the price of a vintage anglo. (My Matusewich Wheatstone english, found thru a newspaper ad had cost me $300. twenty-five years ago.) With a Noel Hill workshop coming up, I was scrambling for a C/G instrument. I had $2000. to spend and was looking for a vintage instrument (with concertina reeds). I don't want to say Chris Algar of Barleycorns laughed, but he was not enthusiastic about my budget! I finally settled on an early 50s Wheatstone from The Button Box, which, if not ideal, has certainly proved servicable and exceeded my meager (but improving) abilities.

It may be fun to remember the good old days, or talk about the exceptions (I got lucky at a recent auction), but the reality is that the vintage anglo market is presently on fire. Will it cool down? Yes....eventually. Are any of you old timers going to sell your Linotas or Jeffries at less than current market (Ebay) value? Probably not. Has anyone recently priced a pre 1970 Martin guitar? Supply and demand.

The new, quality concertina makers offer some beautiful alternatives to expensive vintage instruments. I enjoyed the Morses, and Tedrows at the workshop (there wasn't an Edgely). But....The makers may argue, but I believe I can hear a difference between their accordian reeds and vintage concertina reeds. And as master Noel Hill says, "It's the reeds, it's the reeds, it's the reeds!"

[Greg Jowaisas]

Ahh yes, the Crabb. There must not have been a Morris player in the crowd with $2,000 in his pocket. Two months ago I would have been pleased to buy this instrument at its asking price of $2,250 (see buy and sell concertina.net).

[JimLucas]

Supply and demand.

Well, at least you didn't say "efficient market". The thing about supply and demand is that it works only to the extent that the two are in communication. If you manage to find a vintage Jeffries or Wheatstone in playable condition at a flea market for $50, you can bet the supplier is unaware of the potential demand. The fact that there aren't many such deals keeps the "market" price from dropping radically, but incomplete knowledge and inefficient communication can result in significant individual departures from "average" prices.

With concertinas, the *relatively* small size of the market plus individual variations in both instruments and players' preferences means that even with "complete" information, an unambiguous market price may be an impossibility. As already noted, instrument A might bring a generally higher price than instrument B in Ireland, with the reverse being true in England.

but I think it's also true that a major fraction of the concertina buyers are still individuals who intend to keep the instruments, not sell them on. So it's quite possible that the person who would be willing to pay a premium price for a particular instrument *if* they had the money either do don't have it at the moment that instrument goes on the market. The result can be that the instrument sells for a significantly different price than it would some months earlier or later.

eBay has made possible broader communication between suppliers and demanders, but it's still far from complete. Many people don't regularly prowl eBay. There are risks of inaccurate -- though more often, incomplete -- information from sellers, which can shift the final price either higher or lower than a hands-on purchase would fetch.

There's also the factor of distribution and delivery costs. Shipping costs money and internationally there can be customs duties, but that pales beside most countries' VAT (17%, 19%, 25%). Thus, a purchase price of $2000 could have a true cost of $2500 or more. (And that ignores possible restoration costs, which can be difficult or impossible to estimate in advance.)

The makers may argue, but I believe I can hear a difference between their accordian reeds and vintage concertina reeds.

I think most of the makers would agree with you that there's a *diffierence* in sound. But whether one is *better* than the other is a matter of taste. I've seen photos of old Irish concertina players with German concertinas that certainly didn't have Wheatstone/Jeffries style reeds. And for a musical heritage that embraces whistles, banjos, fiddles, and accordions (among other instruments) all playing the same melody, it seems nothing more than snobbish arrogance to suggest that one particular concertina sound is inherently superior. (I have my own preferences, mind you, but I know they're *mine*, not nature's.)

[Greg Jowaisas]

Chris,
You make lots of good points. And in the end the answers ARE a matter of personal preference, experience and chance. I personally think there is something special to the sound of the old time concertina reeds. That's not to say all the old instruments sounded great, or that the new makers can't capture that old sound. ( At concertina camp I loved the sound from a Dipper and a Suttner as well as a Jeffries, an older Crabb, and a Lachenal souped up by Paul Groff. There were many other nice concertinas both old and new, but these were, to me, the standouts.) So my limited experience coulpled with my preference might make me seek out one of these instruments. Absolute truth? More like love. And when it comes to price: perhaps compromise.

One of the charming and frustrating things about the finding and buying an instrument for personal use are the inconsistancies. A bargain here, over priced there. Paul Groff talks of an immature market that hasn't found its consistant levels yet. Again if you personally have the patience and time, and put in leg work, a bargain is possible. If you need a box next week like I felt I did, you make your best choice and pay the piper.

I personally think the makers that are forging their own reeds are on an interesting course. Perhaps its the craftsmanship, or the hard won lessons.
Or maybe its the sound?

[Greg Jowaisas]

Sorry, that reply was to Jim. Give me time, I'll get the hang of this.