[Dave Weinstein]

My wife is interested in duet concertinas, and we currently have a Stagi Hayden on hire from Button Box.

What would be ideal for us would be for the fans of the various systems to explain what they like about them (for reference, we'd be looking at the smaller number of keys to keep the weight of the instrument down).

Thanks,
--Dave

[JimLucas]

Dave Weinstein, on Apr 22 2004, 07:37 PM, said:

My wife is interested in duet concertinas,...

I've written some stuff in the past, but it might be hard to locate. (I don't think the C.net search engine works very well.) Some of it compares different duets; some compares also anglo and English.

If you can wait some days, I'll try to resurrect or write new some of my thoughts after this weekend's Scandinavian Squeeze-In.

I tend to favor the Crane, but I don't believe that any one kind of concertina -- or even duet concertina -- is in inherently superior to any other, i.e., better for all people or all kinds of music. I think the Maccann, Hayden, and even Jeffries can all be excellent choices.

Quote

we'd be looking at the smaller number of keys to keep the weight of the instrument down

However, if you want an instrument with as few buttons as possible, I would defintely recommend the Crane. Check out the Topic Left-hand Key Assignment On 46-key Duet for some related perspectives, both from myself and from others.

[John Wild]

JimLucas, on Apr 22 2004, 09:20 PM, said:

Quote

we'd be looking at the smaller number of keys to keep the weight of the instrument down

However, if you want an instrument with as few buttons as possible, I would defintely recommend the Crane.

My Hayden Duet has 46 buttons + air button. I find it compact and quite lightweight, comparable to a standard 48-button English. This is a Steve Dickinson/Wheatstone model.

I tried a McCann system before taking up the Hayden, but got nowhere with it. I later tried a Crane system, and think I could have 'made a go' of it. However, I stayed with the Hayden system as I had already spent some time learning it, felt at home with it, and could not divide my mental energy three ways (I was keeping up the English concertina as well.)

The bottom line line I would suggest is try the systems and see which you take to. If you make good progress on a 46-key duet, the main drawback you will come to feel is that you would like some extra notes at the top or bottom of the range. This if course would mean a heavier instrument.

Best wishes,

John Wild

[Robert Gaskins]

Very recently posted:

Which Duet Concertina--Hayden or Maccann?

"A comparative review of two concertinas: a Stagi Hayden Duet concertina (c. 2003), and a Lachenal Maccann Duet concertina (c. 1900). Each instrument has 46 keys, and each cost £500 ($800) ready to play."

This is a very long review, even though it doesn't include Jim's Crane Duets. It does describe some shortcomings of the Stagi when compared to a vintage concertina of the same size and costing the same amount of money--and that comparison would apply to a vintage Maccann or a vintage Crane.

The review specifically addresses the range of playable keys on a 46-key instrument (Hayden and Maccann), and discusses the trade-off of extra range versus extra weight in the two systems. For me, light weight is important--and vintage duets are much lighter than the Stagi for the same range (or, vintage duets can have a larger range than the Stagi at the same weight).

Most of the resources available on the web for the various duet systems are linked from:

Jeffries Duets
Crane Duets
Hayden Duets
Maccann Duets
Other Duet Systems (Early Wheatstone Double, Early Wheatstone Duett, Late Wheatstone Chidley)

[Dave Weinstein]

If we go with a Hayden, it would be a Tedrow Hayden, rather than a Stagi.

--Dave

[gcoover]

If weight is a key consideration, that would probably exclude the Jeffries Duet, as the ones I've played tend to be fairly heavy and solidly built. What type of music do you want to play on a duet, and in what keys? The Jeffries is "theoretically" chromatic, but if you get too far out of the home key you might never get your fingers sorted back out.

After hearing Michael Hebbert's Jeffries Duet LP "The Rampin' Cat" many years ago, I simply had to have an instrument that could make those "fistfuls of chords" and have that rich fairground organ sound. I wouldn't trade my 50-button Jeffries Duet for any instrument out there!

Gary

[JimLucas]

John Wild, on Apr 23 2004, 01:00 AM, said:

JimLucas, on Apr 22 2004, 09:20 PM, said:

Quote

we'd be looking at the smaller number of keys to keep the weight of the instrument down

However, if you want an instrument with as few buttons as possible, I would defintely recommend the Crane.

My Hayden Duet has 46 buttons + air button.

Crane's come with as few as 35 buttons, and it's in this extreme that I feel the Crane has a definite advantage. My reasoning can be found in the Left-hand Key Assignment On 46-key Duet Topic.

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I find it compact and quite lightweight, comparable to a standard 48-button English. This is a Steve Dickinson/Wheatstone model.

That hardly seems an argument in favor of taking up the Hayden, unless you can tell Dave where he can purchase a Wheatstone Hayden... at any price. On the other hand, if the Tedrow Hayden is equally small and light, that would definitely be worth considering.

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If you make good progress on a 46-key duet, the main drawback you will come to feel is that you would like some extra notes at the top or bottom of the range. This of course would mean a heavier instrument.

Not "of course", though I admit it would seem so. A lot depends on make, model, and other details. I have a 55-button ebony Lachenal New Model Triumph (same as Crane) and a 48-button rosewood Crane-labelled Lachenal (Crane system, of course). Both are six-sided, the ends are exactly the same size (6-5/8" across the flats), and they weigh exactly the same (1.32 kg = 2 lb 14½ oz). The 55-button ebony Edeophone Triumph, on the other hand, is 7½" across the flats (but also 12-sided, so "rounder") and weighs 1.6 kg (3 lb 8 oz).

[Dave Weinstein]

Are there any Duet players in the NC region? The map doesn't show any, but being able to try a MacCann or a Crane would be enormously useful.

Regards,
--Dave

[Kurt Braun]

I don't know exactly what you are getting at with the low button count, but here are a few comments that might be helpful. BTW, my experience is exclusively with Cranes and not too many of them.

The size of the reeds count for as much as the number of keys. I used to have a 55 key triumph. Now I have a 59 key. The extra four keys weigh a ton (slight exageration). But that is because the left side of the concertina is so very much deeper (lower), not because it has four more studs. The lower notes make for a much bigger instrument.

So if you are comparing a 48 key with a 55 key and the difference is in the upper register where reeds are small (and light) and the tina doesn't have to be made larger to accomodate them, you aren't gaining that much by reducing the number of keys. (At the same time, I personally rarely use the top row or even the next to top row, so it wouldn't be that great a loss either.)

You might find, when looking at instruments, a better made instrument with more keys and only a slight increase in weight. Don't forget that quality does count for something.

Finally, it might be of interest to you that initially I was *very* disapointed at the larger size of the 59 key instrument. I eventually learned the advantage of the increased range -- especially on the lower end that "caused" the increase in size and weight. Some day I'd like to have what I'd consider a little 55 key instrument, but it would never replace my larger instrument.

This post has been edited by Kurt Braun: 23 April 2004 - 10:59 PM

[JimLucas]

Kurt Braun, on Apr 24 2004, 04:00 AM, said:

The size of the reeds count for as much as the number of keys.  I used to have a 55 key triumph.  Now I have a 59 key.  The extra four keys weigh a ton (slight exageration).  But that is because the left side of the concertina is so very much deeper (lower), not because it has four more studs.  The lower notes make for a much bigger instrument.

No. That's only part of it.

My 55-button Edeophone and 55-button New Model have exactly the same range in each hand, but the Edeo is significantly larger and heavier. Well, larger will account for some of the heavier -- more wood, etc. -- even if it only makes the chambers larger, to give a different tone quality. But I believe each of the reeds in the Edeophone is also longer for the same pitch. (Unlike with flutes, the length/pitch relationship is not fixed.)

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So if you are comparing a 48 key with a 55 key and the difference is in the upper register where reeds are small (and light) and the tina doesn't have to be made larger to accomodate them, you aren't gaining that much by reducing the number of keys.

As above, it's the "have to" that raises warning flags for me. Certainly, there's less "have to" with smaller reeds, but much of the variation in size and weight among instruments is independent of the "have to" constraints. As I noted, the 55-button Edeophone weighs 20% more than the 55-button New Model, though they have exactly the same range in each hand. Meanwhile, my 59-button Crane-system Jeffries weighs "a ton" -- actually 2.13 kg = 4 lb 11 oz, which is 33% more than the 55-button Edeophone, -- though it has only 4 additional notes (3 in left hand, 1 in right) and is only 7" across the hexagonal flats (and thus 6% less area than the Edeophone, which is 7½" across 12-sided flats). But it also has metal ends, and I believe that Jeffries has a reputation for more "solid" construction overall.

If weight matters to you when looking for an instrument, then ask first about weight, and only secondarily about number of buttons once you've established an acceptable weight range. I recommend also being sure of a light, responsive action. Sluggish buttons or reeds can make even a light instrument seem heavy.

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Some day I'd like to have what I'd consider a little 55 key instrument, but it would never replace my larger instrument.

Kurt, why not keep your eye out for a smaller, lighter Crane with the range of your 59-button or more? I'm pretty sure they exist. Maybe even with metal ends.