Anglo Vs English

[JimLucas]

...the Anglo concertina is easy to play by ear. It can be quite intuitive.

For some people, that is undoubtedly true. The same can be said of the English.

 

My personal experience with the English was that the first time I had one in my hands, and with noone even hinting at what the note layout might be, in less than 10 minutes I was playing a tune (a Macedonian song, actually) in two part harmony. Thinking back to that day after I really learned to play, I realized that I had played it in the key of Eb, not in C, which many people seem to think is much easier.

 

Hand straps as opposed to thumb straps may be a factor in catering for small hands too.

 

I don't think either is necessarily superior. Many hand straps can't be adjusted snugly enough for small hands. And the breadth of the anglo keyboard might cause problems for hands too small to reach. On the other hand, the stretch between the thumb loops and the finger plates on an English can also be a problem for small hands.

[JimLucas]

-JIM, my comments were just as I stated them, i.e. for traditional Irish music. I made no mention of Scottish, Shetland, or American music, bands or musicians.

In this discussion, neither did I.

 

-JIM, My comments re the piano accordion are valid. There are small piano accordions.

 

They come in numerous sizes, from 12-bass to 140-bass, with anywhere from 1 to 5 or more sets of reeds, and with various sizes of right-hand keyboard. But I thought the discussion of the PA was centered on whether or how much it is or has been used in Irish music, not how big it is.

 

I think the Irish PA players I've known generally travelled with 48- or 72-bass instruments, though they may have had a 120-bass at home.

 

The difference I referred to is one of direction. This difference is the main reason for the popularity of the button accordion over the piano accordion, today, in Ireland,...

 

Might be true, but it seems to me like speculation, difficult to prove. Just as likely that it's popular because it's popular, i.e., because it -- or its style -- is currently "in".

 

...in spite of the fact that it would be much easier for a musician trained on the piano to switch over to piano accordion than button accordion.

 

That statement seems to presuppose that at least the majority of button accordion players learned to play piano before taking up the accordion. I rather doubt that to be the case.

 

Undoubtedly, the original economic reasons and the resulting anglo dominence has helped to shape the way all IRISH concertina styles have developed. In other words, the instrument has shaped the music more than the music chose the instrument, at least historically.

 

It has shaped the Irish *concertina* music. It has NOT shaped Irish fiddle or whistle music, or the style of Irish music in general. *That* is *my* point. When I say the English concertina is good for playing Irish music, I don't mean that it's great for imitating Irish-style *anglo* playing, though I've heard that done. I mean that it's good for playing Irish *music*. My own style of playing Irish music on the English owes more to fiddle and whistle styles than to anglo, and I think that is good, not bad.

 

-JIM, the "legato style" of whistle players and lack of tonguing you mention eludes me. I often hear players of Irish music play very legato, over here, in North America, at sessions, but these tend to be inexperienced whistle players who have not managed to use embellishments effectively, if at all. We have, at our branch, several whisle players who have competed and won prizes at the All Ireland, and their playing is anything but legato. Also, if you have ever heard Micho Russel, the well-known Doolin whistle player, you will know that tonguing is the only form of embellishment he used, and he liberally sprinkled his music with it.

 

It seems we have very different experiences. In my experience, Miko Russel's style is an anomaly. Your labelling the legato style as "North American" and "inexperienced" strikes me as bizarre, as I've taken workshops from several different *Irish*-Irish players and listened to recordings and concerts of many others, *all* of whom seem to use a minimum of tonguing. Among these I'll include Sean Potts, Paddy Maloney, Seamus Ennis, and Mary Bergin, none of them either inexperienced or North American.

 

-JIM, having benn involved in the very Comhaltas tours you mention, I know how the musicians are selected. [...] A tour not having a button accordion does not mean that it wasn't an important instrument, but more likely, the musician cancelled or one could not be found to replace him/her.

 

In the concert I mentioned, I did not draw my conclusions about the relative status of the PA and button accordions merely from presence or absence, but from the comments of the Comhaltas MC. So on that basis you should perhaps take issue with him, not me.

 

I don't know of one well-known concertinist in Ireland playing English.

 

I don't, either, but I have been told by Irish musicians I do know that there now are at least a couple. I'm trying to learn more, and will of course report immediately if/when I have something concrete to report.

 

I have never said that you couldn't or shouldn't play Irish music on English.

 

Good to hear, because I wasn't clear on that. I think we're more in agreement than our discussion so far would indicate.

 

-You can certainly do it and do it well, but it requires more work, and a change in technique that very few English players seem to do.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, Frank, but that statement suggests to me that your conception is of the English playing Irish music in the anglo style, something which I insist is not necessary, no more than that a fiddle should be made to sound like a mandolin. The English is not a different kind of anglo; it's a different instrument altogether.

 

-Irish music is essentially for dancing and is therefore "bouncy", not legato...

 

Ceilih dancing may be "bouncy"; sets may be "bouncy"; but step dancing sure as hell isn't. Even a hard-shoe reel is mostly smooth to the floor, any rises and falls legato, in spite of the percussion of the feet on the floor. And the slip jig is about the smoothest dance I've ever encountered. Even the "bounce" in Ceilidh dancing -- as I've seen it, and was taught it-- is more of a smooth up-and-down than a percussive "bounce".

Edited October 5, 2003 by JimLucas

[Frank Edgley]

Sorry Jim that you have chosen to "goranise" my comments. I stand by them 100%. Play what you like on any instrument you choose and you may even be quite musical. But there is a reason for the facts i.e. that there are no successful (I've never even heard of a participant) competitors at the All Ireland competitions playing an English. To put this all down to prejudice would border on being an arrogant statement. Such a statement would imply that the Irish (who as a group are a very talented musical nation) wouldn't have the sense to play a system which is most appropriate to the music they wish to play, or are too prejudiced to make a wise decision.

[Eric Root]

Of course there are lots of little technical aspects of each instrument that can be exploited in music. It's hard to copy the exact details of anglo technique on the english and maybe best to exploit its own little twists of note placement, fingering, phrasing with bellows.

 

But the one major "type of sound" that you get on the anglo (or German, or button accordion) that is hardest to duplicate on the english is the rapid change of notes on one button produced by holding a button down and crisply changing bellows direction. I don't mean just horsing the bellows in and out like a cartoon character, but subtly profiling both the first and second note with controlled bellows pressure while using a change in bellows direction (and the 2 valves) to articulate the change in pitch. After some practice this can give a lot of nuances that would be hard to imitate on an english (especially at high speed), where all changes of pitch are keyed by the fingers. On the other side of the equation, the english can do a repetition of the same pitch via bellows shake, an effect I have been told some enjoy. So Frank, if we were to be thrown a bone (besides the great tradition of Irish anglo players!) I would say it should be this effect rather than the notion that our push-pull instruments will make the rhythm for us!

Paul, thanks for the interesting description. I do think I have heard (since so far I only really play the English among squeezeboxes) a particular rhythmic character in playing a push-pull instrument, which may be what you are talking about, and which doesn't seem to just be the player lucking into a side effect of his box. I will keep it in mind when I get around to really learning a push-pull instrument.

 

-Eric Root

[Eric Root]

But there is a reason for the facts i.e. that there are no successful (I've never even heard of a participant) competitors at the All Ireland competitions playing an English.

Frank, the reason why there are no competitors on the English concertina in Ireland is because there isn't a category for it.

 

By the way, I apologize if I've been clumsy in making my points; I am a little bit cranky on this subject and need to be careful not to offend, although a certain amount of arguing _can_ be refreshing.

 

-Eric Root

[Christopher Quinn]

My personal experience with the English was that the first time I had one in my hands, and with noone even hinting at what the note layout might be, in less than 10 minutes I was playing a tune (a Macedonian song, actually) in two part harmony.

That settles it then, the Anglo is definitely more amenable to playing things intuitively. I wouldn't expect to take 10 minutes to learn a tune. But then of course I was thinking of "Baa Baa Black Sheep" and "The Grand Old Duke of York".

[JimLucas]

I wouldn't expect to take 10 minutes to learn a tune. But then of course I was thinking of "Baa Baa Black Sheep" and "The Grand Old Duke of York".

For me, at least, figuring out where the notes are is not the same a being able to *play* the tune. I can still have problems on the anglo playing the two you mentioned, because if I'm not paying close attention I may send the bellows in the wrong direction... which means I get the wrong note.

[JimLucas]

...my comments. I stand by them 100%..

Fair enough. I stand by mine, too. We have different points of view, which I presume are based on different perceptions, which I further presume are based on different experiences.

 

Play what you like on any instrument you choose and you may even be quite musical. But there is a reason for the facts i.e. that there are no successful (I've never even heard of a participant) competitors at the All Ireland competitions playing an English.

I'm sure there's a reason. I'm just not convinced that the reasons are what you suggest. There's much more to Irish music than competions... or sessions, or stage performances, or recordings. There are many different facets to Irish "traditional" music, and few people are participating in all of them. Not all good musicians participate in competeitions. And while I have considerable experience with Irish music, I have never even observed a competition.

 

But on the subject of competitions, I wonder which category an English concertina player should enter. I personally think it should be "miscellaneous instruments", if there is such a category, since except in appearance the English is no more like an anglo than a fiddle is like a banjo. And as Eric said, there's currently no category for English concertina.

 

Is there a category for bouzouki? If not, then lack of a category or competition can hardly be dependent to prevalence of the instrument. But if there is, I'll point out that the bouzouki is generally acknowledged to have first entered Irish music in the mid 1960's, yet these days it's omnipresent and "traditional". Who knows what will happen over the next 10-15 years?

 

To put this all down to prejudice would border on being an arrogant statement.

Agreed. Which is why I never suggested such a thing.

 

Such a statement would imply that the Irish (who as a group are a very talented musical nation) wouldn't have the sense to play a system which is most appropriate to the music they wish to play, or are too prejudiced to make a wise decision.

Even if one were to make such a statement, I don't agree that it implies what you say. "Most appropriate" is a matter of personal taste, not some law of nature. Before the 1960's "most appropriate" for Irish music did *not* include the bouzouki; now it does. The same is true for all those wild chords used these days by Irish backup musicians. Would you claim that the Irish before that time didn't "have the sense", but now they do? I think not.

 

Maybe the English concertina will never become really popular in Irish music, but I don't think there's any a priori reason why it shouldn't. If one or more superb exponents of the English in Irish music (something I firmly believe is not an oxymoron) brings it to the public's attention, I think it will take off like a rocket. (And unfortunately, so will prices, just as they did with the anglo.) It hasn't happened yet, and maybe it never will, but my personal prediction is that within the next 20 years it *will* find a significant place in Irish music. (Of course, if I'm wrong, we won't know for 20 years. ) But *not* as a substitute for the anglo.

 

By the way, I have thought of one well-known "Irish" group that has recorded with English concertina: The Boys of the Lough. However I wouldn't call either Robin Morton (from Northern Ireland) or Dave Richardson (who is English) a "superb exponent" of the instrument. I'm sure the fact that their playing hasn't increased the English's popularity among Irish musicians is due more to their playing than to the instrument itself.

[Frank Edgley]

But there is a reason for the facts i.e. that there are no successful (I've never even heard of a participant) competitors at the All Ireland competitions playing an English.

Frank, the reason why there are no competitors on the English concertina in Ireland is because there isn't a category for it.

 

By the way, I apologize if I've been clumsy in making my points; I am a little bit cranky on this subject and need to be careful not to offend, although a certain amount of arguing _can_ be refreshing.

 

-Eric Root

Actually, Eric and Jim, being the chair of the Windsor Detroit branch of Comhaltas, I have been in the situation of helping to organise the Mid-West Regional Fleadh, four times and have read the rules over at least that number of times. There is nothing in the rules that I have seen which delegates English concertina to "Miscellaneous Instruments". (Yes there is a category of "Miscellaneous Insruments".) The category is "Concertina" not "Anglo Concertina", and competitors playing English would be accepted in this category. To be fair, I did hear of a boy who entered the New York Fleadh once, who played the English. There may have been more, but I've not heard of it.

My apologies to all for seeming irritable with my last few posts, but when I see my opinions and statements torn apart no less than 11 times in Jim's last post I get a bit cranky. I am not a neophyte when it comes to the subject of Irish music. My apologies to Goran, as well.

[Mac Catháin]

A fine thing I've done bringing up this topic I see!.... great fun reading all the post and emails I have gotten I will tell you. I am more mixed up now than ever, which is not such a bad thing. Obviously both the Anglo and English systems have their place.

 

BTW.... we often have Old Time fiddle players sit in with us, the youngest in his mid 70s now... and they ALL have rattlesnake rattles in their fiddles, why? To make the fiddle Male.... that's what two (Old) Old Time players told me. My family made fiddles back from the 1790s onward.. .they all had the rattle added. My son is learning fiddle from the Old Time players here, which is the wooded hills of north Mississippi. Most of the players are of Celtic ancestry, most Irish, but a Welsh man in there, their people came to this area circa 1830s. Some fine fiddle music I tell you.

 

But I digress...

 

My last trip over to Ireland I spent time in the Conemara Gaeltacht, two teenage boys there that could set fires with their piano accordians!!! I travel very off beaten paths ways in Ireland, and have found a fair number of piano accordian players. Last trip also I heard a concertina player in County Antrim... a good one to.

 

Any thoughts on makes and models suitable for younger players. I saw a mini English that looked grand for a 9 year old. What about the ship-loads of Chinese Anglos? any good ones, or is like guitar buying... you have to ante up before you get the needed quality...

 

the concertina player with the Boys of the Lough uses and English BTW.

 

Mise Mac Catháin

[Helen]

Thanks for the kind words. It seems that I can play piano accordion for Irish music.

 

I will eventually be able to use the anglo concertina too, hopefully.

 

Helen

[JimLucas]

There is nothing in the rules that I have seen which delegates English concertina to "Miscellaneous Instruments". (Yes there is a category of "Miscellaneous Insruments".) The category is "Concertina" not "Anglo Concertina", and competitors playing English would be accepted in this category.

That's worth knowing. I personally think it's wrong -- like having mandolins enter in the "fiddle" category, -- and I suspect it's due to those setting the categories being ignorant of the distinctions among concertinas. But if that's the way it works and *if* I ever enter a competition with my English, I guess it will be in the "concertina" category. Fair enough.

 

By the way, is there also only one category for "accordions", including all of B/C, G/D, and PA, or are they separated?

 

I am not  a neophyte when it comes to the subject of Irish music.

Certainly not, which I know very well, but neither am I. If I've given anyone the idea that I thought you were, I seriously apologize, as that wasn't my intent at all.

 

One purpose of my comments has been to emphasize that in spite of our long experience, each of us is still familiar with only a small part of the very broad and varied corpus of Irish traditional music and musicians, and the apparently great differences in our experiences, views, and conclusions merely serve to demonstrate that fact.

Edited October 6, 2003 by JimLucas

[Michael Reid]

By the way, is there also only one category for "accordions", including all of B/C, G/D, and PA, or are they separated?

There's one category for button accordions (all tunings) and another for piano accordions. See here for the listing of 2003 Fleadh Ceol categories and results.

[Eric Root]

A fine thing I've done bringing up this topic I see!.... great fun reading all the post and emails I have gotten I will tell you.  I am more mixed up now than ever, which is not such a bad thing.  Obviously both the Anglo and English systems have their place.

 

BTW....  we often have Old Time fiddle players sit in with us, the youngest in his mid 70s now... and they ALL have rattlesnake rattles in their fiddles, why?  To make the fiddle Male.... that's what two (Old) Old Time players told me.  My family made fiddles back from the 1790s onward.. .they all had the rattle added.  My son is learning fiddle from the Old Time players here, which is the wooded hills of north Mississippi.  Most of the players are of Celtic ancestry, most Irish, but a Welsh man in there, their people came to this area circa 1830s.  Some fine fiddle music I tell you.

 

 

-Eric Root

 

 

Aha! you can go to the Southeast Squeeze-in! Try the instruments there to see which you like!

 

-Eric Root

[Robin Harrison]

Quote....When I see my statements and opinions torn apart....Unquote

 

Frank....I think Jim was just courteousely (and respectfully) debating you point for point.I found it one of the most interesting discussions we've recently had......

Hey ...don't worry about being cranky.I've been like that for the past week and will have to buy beer for all my Morris mates!! Remember the old saying ...." I only get to go places twice.....and the second time is to apologise !!"

Yours is a voice we want to hear.

Kind Regards Robin

 

PS....I'm just about to post a question about quotes.

[A.D. Homan]

There's one category for button accordions (all tunings) and another for piano accordions.

 

 

 

Michael,

 

I'm wondering whether you could say more about the "button accordion" category in the context of this discussion (on English concertina for Irish music)... specifically I think the point that is related is that although the "button accordion" category is technically open to all types of button accordions, I've heard that the judges prefer the B/C system... and the All-Ireland button accordion champions have all won playing B/C instruments (is that true? I've also heard that even players who prefer C#D have competed using B/C boxes).

 

(BTW there is a separate category for "melodeon" i.e. one-row diatonic accordion; additionally, I always assumed that other types of button accordions, i.e. 3-row B/C/C# etc, would compete in the misc instruments category.).

 

Is this (non-official) preference for B/C true on all levels of the competitions? Does anyone bother to compete using other systems? (C#/D, D/G, etc.) Does this compare in any way to the absence of English concertinas in the competitions?

 

I'm not bringing up these points as an "expert," I'm just hoping that someone who is more familiar with the competitions will address this.

Andy

[Michael Reid]

Michael,

 

I'm wondering whether you could say more about the "button accordion" category in the context of this discussion (on English concertina for Irish music)... specifically I think the point that is related is that although the "button accordion" category is technically open to all types of button accordions, I've heard that the judges prefer the B/C system... and the All-Ireland button accordion champions have all won playing B/C instruments (is that true? I've also heard that even players who prefer C#D have competed using B/C boxes).

[...]

Is this (non-official) preference for B/C true on all levels of the competitions?

Andy,

 

What I know about the All-Irelands is (mostly) what I have read on the Internet.

 

After seeing your questions earlier today, though, I sent an email to a player of my acquaintance who won a junior All-Ireland championship some years ago ... and did so, it turns out, playing C#/D.

 

However, this person (who did not want to be identified or quoted) also reported:

 

- Most compete on B/C.

- The advice given (informally, I imagine) to senior competitors is to play B/C and to use B/C fingering (i.e., don't just play it as if it's C#/D, so everything comes out a whole step flat).

[bill_mchale]

There's one category for button accordions (all tunings) and another for piano accordions.

 

 

 

Michael,

 

I'm wondering whether you could say more about the "button accordion" category in the context of this discussion (on English concertina for Irish music)... specifically I think the point that is related is that although the "button accordion" category is technically open to all types of button accordions, I've heard that the judges prefer the B/C system... and the All-Ireland button accordion champions have all won playing B/C instruments (is that true? I've also heard that even players who prefer C#D have competed using B/C boxes).

 

(BTW there is a separate category for "melodeon" i.e. one-row diatonic accordion; additionally, I always assumed that other types of button accordions, i.e. 3-row B/C/C# etc, would compete in the misc instruments category.).

 

Is this (non-official) preference for B/C true on all levels of the competitions? Does anyone bother to compete using other systems? (C#/D, D/G, etc.) Does this compare in any way to the absence of English concertinas in the competitions?

 

I'm not bringing up these points as an "expert," I'm just hoping that someone who is more familiar with the competitions will address this.

Andy

Well I am not sure if it was always in the misc. category or evolved to it in the last few years, but I know John Nolan won on both the 3 row and the 2 row box (I think in the same All Ireland) so either there might at one time have been a 3 row category.

 

Regarding the preference for B/C... Well I am pretty sure that Jackie Daley played a B/C for his all Ireland win.. and that seems to be the only time in the last several decades that his fingers were not dancing over a C#/D keyboard (well except when he has a pint ), so I would say that the preference for B/C is pretty predominant, though I have to believe that is starting to change as more and more really excellent C#/D players come to promience (though I have no plans on abandoning the B/C .

 

--

Bill