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So is Cajun music the only traditional music where the Accordion (single row melodeon for those unfamiliar with Cajun music) became so dominant that it changed the most popular key for the music?

For a start, how about English traditional music (as opposed to the revival of it), whenever a free reed instrument was/is involved ?

 

Let me save some typing and quote myself, answering a question on this theme from an earlier thread in this forum :

 

... how did Kimber and Father Ken and the others do it?  Was Morris music played in C in their day?

Morris (and other forms of folk dance music) was played in whatever keys suited the instruments being used, most of the old free reed ones being pitched in C, though the tunes were often written down from the playing of fiddle, or tabor-pipe, players, so they tend to be notated for instruments pitched in D.

 

You will find, for example, that the traditional East-Anglian melodeon players have always played in C. I bought several instruments, only last year, that had belonged to one of them (the late Cyril Stannard, from Suffolk), who had single-row C's, and double-row G/C, C/F, C/C# and B/C boxes (though he also had a "new-fangled", seemingly unused, D/G), but it was always the C-row that had got all the playing. Fiddle players would simply tune down a tone, and play in C (using D fingering), just as they still do in Cajun music.

 

The playing of G/D concertinas, and D/G melodeons, is a relatively new, post-war, development. The first, commercially made, D/G accordions were built by Hagstrom (who set up a factory in Sunderland [read Darlington, I didn't have my notes with me], after WWII), for the English Folk Dance and Song Society, in !949. The very first Hohner D/G's only appeared in the early 1950's. The system was so new that a 1957 article in English Dance & Song, "What you can do with the melodeon", doesn't even mention it !

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I am happy for changes in direction from the original discussion topic,some of the most interesting discussions on this site have been prompted by contributors going off at a tangent.The only shame is that if someone wanted to find the discussion

that has developed about say CG/GD concertinas and key playing in Traditional dance music, from the original Piano accordion heading ,one would never find it.If Jim were here, I think by now he would have moved it to a new discussion heading to continue the interest.

We could even have some idiot talking about Goldfish on this site next, how bizarre is that?

Al ;)

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Tying together thoughts about keys and piano accordions - I wonder whether, if the PA had been the predominant free reed instrument for Morris etc, the commonest keys would be C and F rather than G and D. Obviously C is the "easiest" key on a piano keyboard, with no accidentals. But I suspect that with no external influences or conventions F might be the next most commonly chosen key, as the difference in how it's fingered (thumb down on the 5th of the scale rather than the 4th because of the Bb) and the fact that you still have a finger left over at the end of the scale mean that it's a very comfortable key indeed to play in - to me, more so than either G or D (though of course the difference is a very slight one).

 

This is complete conjecture of course, but if the Piano Accordion had been pre-eminent from an early stage, might we instead have seen huge numbers of F/C anglos?

 

[Edited to apologise for the ridiculously long and breathless sentence in the first para!]

Edited by stuart estell
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...Obviously C is the "easiest" key on a piano keyboard, with no accidentals. ..

I've often heard it said that C is the easiest key on a piano but, tapping the wisdom of my piano- and accordion-playing friend, he says that C is difficult because you have no reference point which you can feel (rather than see). With other keys the accidentals provide a fixed reference.

 

I claim additional points for using the words wisdom and accordion in the same sentence.

 

Howard

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I've often heard it said that C is the easiest key on a piano but, tapping the wisdom of my piano- and accordion-playing friend, he says that C is difficult because you have no reference point which you can feel (rather than see). With other keys the accidentals provide a fixed reference.

Interesting - I've never found that, though I definitely have to go through a brief period of "adjustment time" if I've been playing the piano shortly before playing the accordion as my accordion's keys are so much narrower - not so much of a problem for scalic movement, but I'm guaranteed to miss octaves!!

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I can never understand why some melodion players insist on only playing G/D boxes when boxes with a few accidentals are available. These Luddites then complain about other people who play outside G and D.

Why play 3/4 of an instrument?

 

Back to Peters comment, I don't think bodhrans came from Ireland originally - Bodhrans/Tambours/Nakers whatever, came to Europe with the Moors.

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I can never understand why some melodion players insist on only playing G/D boxes when boxes with a few accidentals are available. These Luddites then complain about other people who play outside G and D.

Why play 3/4 of an instrument?

But even if you do have the right hand accidentals the nature of the melodeon basses means that left hand accompaniments are heavily compromised unless you've got a _lot_ of bass buttons. My Hohner Erica D/G has two accidental buttons (and hence 4 accidentals) including an F natural, but playing it in C isn't practical as there's no chord button that harmonises with it. Hence that F is only any use as a melodic passing note or in instances where it's appropriate for that note to coincide with a bass note (D or A are available to go with it) rather than a chord. You could ignore the left hand, but that really would be only playing half the instrument.

 

Given the choice again, for the amount they're used, I would cheerfully dispense with the accidentals and have an entirely diatonic box, because that's what I play it as. I'll readily admit to putting the melodeon down straight away if something's not in D or G or their relative minors - but then I would have a concertina available for other keys anyway :)

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But even if you do have the right hand accidentals the nature of the melodeon basses means that left hand accompaniments are heavily compromised unless you've got a _lot_ of bass buttons. ...You could ignore the left hand, but that really would be only playing half the instrument.

 

Given the choice again, for the amount they're used, I would cheerfully dispense with the accidentals and have an entirely diatonic box, because that's what I play it as. I'll readily admit to putting the melodeon down straight away if something's not in D or G or their relative minors - but then I would have a concertina available for other keys anyway :)

I'm with you on this one Stuart. I'd even go further and say that to a large extent I play the concertina this way, using the left hand to provide accompaniment.

 

I wouldn't dispense altogether with the accidentals but I do prefer them in a half row rather than at the end. This includes the reversals of D and E (on a G/D box) which parallel the third row of a concertina and the reversals of G and A on a C/G concertina.

 

If it get's outside my key range I swap to double bass!

 

I'll quote a bit from my earlier post from the Grauniad - "Squeezebox players ... can only play in 2 keys - which again, is more than enough for anyone". :D

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I LOVE piano accordions and I have been quite delighted by this thread even though it has meandered off topic. Especially since Al, who started it, is okay with the ramblings. I do admit that when I read Al's reply, I quickly scrolled up to see if there was a goldfish related ad on top (Nope, Noell Hill in Ireland).

 

One thousand points to Howard who mentioned wisdom and accordion in the same sentence. Minus two thousand for being cheeky about it.

 

Oh dear, I hope cheeky means what I think it means and is not offensive.

 

Ah well, I couldn't think of an adequate American slang word.

 

Helen

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But even if you do have the right hand accidentals the nature of the melodeon basses means that left hand accompaniments are heavily compromised unless you've got a _lot_ of bass buttons. My Hohner Erica D/G has two accidental buttons (and hence 4 accidentals) including an F natural, but playing it in C isn't practical as there's no chord button that harmonises with it. Hence that F is only any use as a melodic passing note or in instances where it's appropriate for that note to coincide with a bass note (D or A are available to go with it) rather than a chord. You could ignore the left hand, but that really would be only playing half the instrument.

 

Well I know Paolo Soprani and Hohner both use to make 3 row button accordions with a full 80 button bass side. I think they were popular in Scottish Music though I also have seen some of the Irish Show Band set play them instead of Piano Accordions. I am not sure but Hohner or Paolo might have made them in 4th or 5th tuned boxes and not just the B/C/C#s that were used in Scottish and Irish music.

 

If you had twelve buttons on the left hand side you could always get it set up so it played the the 1st and the 5th of the 12 notes and then supply the third yourself.. though this would mean sacrificing the bass... Not saying its a good idea, just a thought.

 

Of course plenty of Irish players play without using the bass... in part because the hohner B/C boxes had a bass set up that assumed that the box would be played mostly in the key of B.

 

--

Bill

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Hohner made the Jimmy Shand B/C/C# which I believe had 104(5) bass notes

Paolo Soprani made these with 96 bass buttons

 

I very much enjoy listening to the PA

 

But just as Segovia andvanced the skill level of the classical guitar he derailed its

diversity

 

Welk destroyed the accordion image single handedly, and Myron, though a better player, has done it no favors. There is Phil Cunningham, and Kelley, and Parky and Dan Newton and countless others whose playing is brilliant and nothing like the sappy Welk stuff.

 

I am a melodeon ( bisonoric diatonic accordion) player primarily in the 5th (4th) apart system... had I started over I would have considered PA CBA or the B/C/C# or even the 1/2 step Irish systems with a usable bass

 

As to the D/G (G/D for you Brits) system.. I had one for 10 minutes..far too shrill

with 2 middle reeds. perhaps if I had one with 2 middle one low I might have kept it...here I would have prefered a 2 1/2 row with accidentals

 

There is always the C#/D/G

 

I am between boxes at the moment pondering all the issues brought up here

 

I also find the C/G concertina too shrill... waiting to hear and or play a G/D

 

Interesting idea the G/C melodeon ( which I played for years and now have fallen out of favor with same) paired with the C/G concertina.. and yes the D/G with the G/D

 

There is a local PA accordion club.. I have been invited to one of theor do's... may go.. who knows what could happen

 

 

 

jeff

 

PS my favorite key system is Bb/Eb while not useful in sessions as a solo instrument very fine

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...

 

One thousand points to Howard who mentioned wisdom and accordion in the same sentence. Minus two thousand for being cheeky about it.

 

Oh dear, I hope cheeky means what I think it means and is not offensive.

Cheeky's fine. I might have preferred ironic as in -

 

 

Blackadder: Baldrick, have you no idea what irony is?

 

Baldric: Yeah, it's like goldy and bronzy, only it's made of iron.!

 

 

It's getting late, I'll get me coat.

 

Howard

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Qote:

Well whether one considers a concertina a sub-type of accordion or not I think will in large part depend on what your definition of an accordion is.

 

Lets see, a simple definition of an accordion is a musical instrument that uses metal reeds to produce notes and the reeds are fed air via bellows.

 

And a simple definition of a concertina is a musical instrument that uses metal reeds...

 

If we take a slightly narrower but still broad definition of what an accordion is, the only thing that distinguishes a concertina is the fact that it can play melody on both sides of the instrument and that the keys are pressed parallel to the bellows movement........

 

Ah! Mm.mm..mmm That depends on whether you know about the more modern accordions which are a true free reed instrument in that the buttons on the left hand play single notes and not chords. There are a few good exponents of this instrument who have really mastered it, one of whom when on a tour of the U.S and found himself on or near the Mason-Dixon Line played "Yankee Doodle" with his right hand whilst simultaneously playing "Dixie" with his left.

 

I've heard it all before. You can slag off any instrument you like. There's no one universally hated instrument, only poor players who give it a bad name. As well as playing the accordion I also play the bodhran, an instrument many people advocate playing with a penknife! Take fiddles for example, badly played the instrument becomes a "vile din" rather than a violin.

The instruments that suffer from loud raucous sounds are the concertina, whistle and mandolin. Being basically quiet instruments their contribution to a session can easily get swamped by an over enthusiastic accordionist, bodhran player or banjo player.

Question: What's the difference between a banjo player and a terrorist?

Answer : You can negotiate with a terrorist!

But seriously, getting the offending player to contribute to the session sensitively and not playing too loud or at 100mph, is the answer. Everyone has a reasonable amount of control over the sound which comes out of his/her instrument. Getting them to understand that they can exercise this control is the problem - not the instrument.......

 

bocsaciuil B)

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But even if you do have the right hand accidentals the nature of the melodeon basses means that left hand accompaniments are heavily compromised unless you've got a _lot_ of bass buttons.

People might think me a Luddite (though I play a 10-key 4-stop in three major keys :P ), but I think you very quickly hit the law of diminishing returns if you try to play a diatonic instrument in too many keys, indeed I would go so far as to suggest that this makes them more suitable as folk instruments !

 

In fact it can become a problem having a full Stradella bass system to play, as one objection I have heard to the piano accordion in Irish music is that some players (perhaps with more training on the piano accordion than in traditional music) tend to use chord structures that are too complicated and inappropriate.

 

Imagine how different Cajun music would sound if they actually played the "right" basses on the accordion, or the blues if they played chromatic harmonicas & didn't need to bend notes, it would completely lose its flavour !

 

Well I know Paolo Soprani and Hohner both use to make 3 row button accordions with a full 80 button bass side. . . I am not sure but Hohner or Paolo might have made them in 4th or 5th tuned boxes and not just the B/C/C#s that were used in Scottish and Irish music.

You wouldn't see them very often, but they have been made, in fact you bring me back to Peter Kennedy again, as he seems to have got some Italian ones built in 1955. The following advertisement appeared in English Dance & Song (Vol. XX, No. 2) for November/December 1955 :

 

BUTTON ACCORDION. - Two row (British chromatic [sic]) "Orfeo" ordered by Peter Kennedy in keys G and D for folk dance accompaniment. Full piano accordion type bass (36) 3 voice tremolo tuning. Price £38 including case - E.F.D.&S.S. Sales Dept.

 

In France the original "musette" accordion, as used by players like Emile Vacher, was a (fourth and semitone) "système mixte" in G/C/B, with piano basses.

 

By the way, accordions are tuned in fourths (G to C, D to G, etc.), concertinas are tuned in fifths (C to G, G to D, etc.).

 

Of course plenty of Irish players play without using the bass... in part because the hohner B/C boxes had a bass set up that assumed that the box would be played mostly in the key of B.

The most commonly used bass system on Irish button accordions would be the "Paolo Soprani" one, and people generally got their Hohners retuned to that, but it is still not ideal.

 

It was myself who finally got Hohner to change to the "Paolo" system about ten years ago, only to get complaints from a handful of people who do play in B ! :o There's no allowing for everybody !

Edited by Stephen Chambers
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Well whether one considers a concertina a sub-type of accordion or not I think will in large part depend on what your definition of an accordion is.

One reason I don't try and define a concertina in the FAQ is because I find definitions intended to separate concertina and accordion contrived to say the least (as you say: concertinas have buttons in the plane of the bellows, but accordions have them at right angles, except at the left hand end ...).

 

In reality, concertinas and accordions are very different instruments subject to different evolutions, but also capable of some cross-fertilisation. Beyond that I don't feel inclined to go.

 

Chris

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One reason I don't try and define a concertina in the FAQ is because I find definitions intended to separate concertina and accordion contrived to say the least (as you say: concertinas have buttons in the plane of the bellows, but accordions have them at right angles, except at the left hand end ...).

 

In reality, concertinas and accordions are very different instruments subject to different evolutions, but also capable of some cross-fertilisation. Beyond that I don't feel inclined to go.

Chris,

It almost seems like you are arguing cross purposes here. Definitions that try to seperate the accordion and the concertina seem contrived but at the same time they are very different instruments...

 

I think the basic problem is that the terms concertina and accordion both cover a rather broad range of free reed instruments. Depending how you count, there are at least three distinct types of instrument that are commonly referred to as accordions and at least 5 distinct instruments that are referred to as concertinas. All of these instruments share certain elements in common but it could also be argued that the distictiveness between instruments in one group or the other is almost as great or greater than between some instruments in both classes. Really does the a diatonic button accordion have more in common with a piano accordion (or a Chromatic Button Accordion) than it has in common with the Anglo Concertina? Construction wise maybe, but in terms of how the instrument is played and what sorts of music it is suited for I am not so sure.

 

Essentially calling all these distinct instruments accordions and concertinas would be akin to calling all brass instruments with valves trumpets or all stringed instruments played with a bow violins; the instruments may be all related but they are decidedly different instruments

 

Unfortunately nomenclature is unlikely to change, at least in the near term but I think we can safely come to the following rather loose conclusion. One cannot come to a clear distinction between accordions and concertinas for the simple reason that neither category is tightly defined and unless we concentrate on the orientation of the buttons with respect to the bellows, there is no clear distinction between what makes an anglo a concertina and a 10 button melodeon an accordion.

 

--

Bill

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Unfortunately nomenclature is unlikely to change . . . unless we concentrate on the orientation of the buttons with respect to the bellows, there is no clear distinction between what makes an anglo a concertina and a 10 button melodeon an accordion.

Confusingly for the historian, the nomenclature of free reeds has changed a lot, over time and from place to place, and is still doing so. What most people now call a Melodeon (in England, but not in Ireland) should be called a Viennese Accordion, most Flutinas are simply French Accordions, and now it seems that German Concertinas are commonly described as Anglos, but all these words have (or had ?) precise meanings.

 

Mind you, when he invented the German Concertina, C.F. Uhlig originally called it a “new kind of Accordion” or “20 töniges Accordion”, which (ironically) could be translated today as a "10 button melodeon".

 

And in the meantime, attempts in the Classical Accordion world to perfect their instrument seem to be trying to reinvent the concertina. Somebody should tell them it has already been done !

 

But "hybrid" concertinas, with accordion reeds, are becoming increasingly popular..............................................

 

Welcome to the Concertina/Melodeon Researchers' Home for the Bewildered, here's your piano accordion (just to bring us back to the supposed Topic of this thread !). :( :wacko: :unsure: :blink:

Edited by Stephen Chambers
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