Buying A Concertina For Irish Music

[Nathan]

I'm thinking of taking up the concertina to expand my Irish music horizons (I already play the Irish flute). However, I don't have much money to spend on a instrument right now. I've been looking at the Button Box website, and I could afford a 20-key Hohner or Stagi. I might even be able to manage a 30-key Stagi, but $600-700 seems like a lot of money to spend on a instrument that I'm planning to outgrow.

 

On the other hand, if I wait a year or two, I can afford something a Morse ceili or something similarly priced.

 

So my questions are:

How badly do I need 30 keys starting out? What kind of range can be played on 20 keys?

 

How bad are the lower-end instruments? I don't want to end up with something that will be frustrating to play or install bad habits because it doesn't work well.

 

Are there any options I'm missing here? What about used instruments?

 

Thanks.

[bill_mchale]

I'm thinking of taking up the concertina to expand my Irish music horizons (I already play the Irish flute). However, I don't have much money to spend on a instrument right now. I've been looking at the Button Box website, and I could afford a 20-key Hohner or Stagi. I might even be able to manage a 30-key Stagi, but $600-700 seems like a lot of money to spend on a instrument that I'm planning to outgrow.

 

On the other hand, if I wait a year or two, I can afford something a Morse ceili or something similarly priced.

 

So my questions are:

How badly do I need 30 keys starting out? What kind of range can be played on 20 keys?

 

How bad are the lower-end instruments? I don't want to end up with something that will be frustrating to play or install bad habits because it doesn't work well.

 

Are there any options I'm missing here? What about used instruments?

 

Thanks.

 

Well... if you stick to G and its relative minors a 20 key will be ok. But to play in D you really need a 30 button. You could get a G/D 20 button... but then you will have to relearn all the tunes when you move up. A used Stagi 30 button might serve you ok. That being said, having gone that route.. well a Morse is just so much nicer you might be better off just saving like crazy... A slightly cheaper alternative that will serve perfectly well for Irish Music would be a 24 button. Either the ones with Parallel rows like the Edgley and Herrington make or you might be able to find an older 24 button by Lachenal... It will have a C# on it so you can play in D (And alot of players seem only to use that button on the third row... or if they need it the A#/G# which should also be present on a Lachenal 24 button. Now finding one in good condition is another story.

 

--

Bill

[Dave Weinstein]

I started out on a 20 button G/D for exactly the reasons you gave.

 

I did end up having to relearn the tunes, since I went to a custom layout to get a deeper tone, but if you go to a 30 button G/D you shouldn't need to relearn except when you want to.

[Richard Morse]

So my questions are:

How badly do I need 30 keys starting out? What kind of range can be played on 20 keys?

Look at it this way - the chance of you moving beyond a 20-key is pretty close to a definite.

How bad are the lower-end instruments? I don't want to end up with something that will be frustrating to play or install bad habits because it doesn't work well.

Yes they are, you will, plus they have a tendancy to break down frequently.

Are there any options I'm missing here?

Consider the differences between three scenarios:

 

1. Buy a 20-button for about $200, get maybe $50 (value of your time to get it fixed up for sale and selling it not included) for it two years later when you pay $1850 for a hybrid (price based on the Morse Ceili of $1750 figuring $50/year price increases). You'll learn for a few weeks, the instrument will be holding you back in a couple of months, a year plus of frustration and you finally get a decent instrument. Total cost of this scenario is $1850 + (200 - 50) = $2000. And now you relearn some fingerings and undo bad habits.

 

2. Buy a 30-button Stagi (preferably used in great shape) for about $600 and sell it for about $400 (value of your time not included) in two years when you get the hybrid for $1850. You learn quicker, have less problems (fixits) and have a more flexible (more buttons, better bellows) instrument. You'll take off like crazy when you get the hybrid as you'll be fairly far along by that time and the new box is so much better. Total cost of this scenario is $1850 + (600 - 400) = $2050. Only $50 more than #1 and easier to play with less hassles and relearning to do.

 

3. Put down the $600 you were going to spend on the Stagi and borrow $1150 (the difference from the current $1750 price of the Morse Ceili) at - say 10% (which is about what my credit card rate is - yours may differ). The cost of borrowing that much is $53.10/month x 24 months = 1274.40 (let's call it 1275). At the end of two years you will have spent $600 + 1275 = $1875. This least expensive scenario also has the best box from the start. Check out this credit card calculator and put in your numbers to see how it shakes out. Even at 18% you'll still be way ahead in the game.

 

Do you really want to spend more money having a lousier time? Treat yourself - life is to be enjoyed!

What about used instruments?

It's very hard to find a vintage 30-button under $2000 that will play as well as one of the hybrids. It may *sound* more concertinaish, but that's about it (plus some esthetics, historicalness...). Edited February 14, 2006 by Richard Morse

[m3838]

Rich

"Do you really want to spend more money having a lousier time? Treat yourself - life is to be enjoyed!

What about used instruments?

It's very hard to find a vintage 30-button under $2000 that will play as well as one of the hybrids. It may *sound* more concertinaish, but that's about it (plus some esthetics, historicalness...)."

 

There is one more observation.

I agree with the above 100%, but it didn't cover the resale value.

Unfortunately vintage instruments grow in value and can be sold with a profit few years later.

Modern "hybrids" lose value. I'm not sure why, but it is to be considered.

[JimLucas]

I agree with the above 100%, but it didn't cover the resale value.

Unfortunately vintage instruments grow in value and can be sold with a profit few years later.

Modern "hybrids" lose value. I'm not sure why, but it is to be considered.

It is not my experience that hybrids in good shape lose value. They may sell for slightly less than "current" price after several years, but thanks to inflation that may still be above purchase price.

 

Besides, that argument assumes that the "hybrid" will be resold. Rich's argument seems to assume that once you get a hybrid box you'll hang on to it. Some folks will eventually want to "move up" to an expensive vintage box, but others are quite happy with their Morse, Norman, etc. as their "lifetime" instrument.

 

All three of Rich's scenarios end with the hybrid, so they're directly comparable. To add in a vintage box as an assumed "final" stage would have to distinguish among different kinds of vintage boxes, requring two or more additional levels (and arguments over how many additional levels) for the different qualities. Besides, as noted, many folks will never go to such a "higher" level.

 

As for being able to resell a vintage instrument "at a profit", that has been the trend over the last few years/decades, but I don't know that it can be guaranteed 10, 5, or even 2 years from now. That's a claim perenially made about just about any potential investment, from .com stocks to real estate to famous-painter artworks. Furthermore, I wonder what would happen to the value of Tedrows or Normans if their makers retired, making new ones impossible to get. Being unable to get a new one is unlikely to make used ones lose their value.

 

There are many ways to look at the alternatives, but I think Rich's analysis covers pretty well the situation for this buyer... unless he really likes the "vintage" sound so much more than the "hybrid" that he's willing to sacrifice some playability to get a vintage instrument in the hybrid price range. But then just take Rich's analysis and substitute the other instrument type as the end result.

[bill_mchale]

I agree with the above 100%, but it didn't cover the resale value.

Unfortunately vintage instruments grow in value and can be sold with a profit few years later.

Modern "hybrids" lose value. I'm not sure why, but it is to be considered.

It is not my experience that hybrids in good shape lose value. They may sell for slightly less than "current" price after several years, but thanks to inflation that may still be above purchase price.

 

Besides, that argument assumes that the "hybrid" will be resold. Rich's argument seems to assume that once you get a hybrid box you'll hang on to it. Some folks will eventually want to "move up" to an expensive vintage box, but others are quite happy with their Morse, Norman, etc. as their "lifetime" instrument.

 

All three of Rich's scenarios end with the hybrid, so they're directly comparable. To add in a vintage box as an assumed "final" stage would have to distinguish among different kinds of vintage boxes, requring two or more additional levels (and arguments over how many additional levels) for the different qualities. Besides, as noted, many folks will never go to such a "higher" level.

 

This is quite true. Alot will depend on the individual of course. Some will never be able to justify the expense

of a quality instrument with traditional reeds. Others simply prefer the sound of the concertinas with modern

accordion style reeds. Either way the Morse, Edgley, Tedrow, Marcus, etc. is likely to be the final instrument for such a person.

 

As for being able to resell a vintage instrument "at a profit", that has been the trend over the last few years/decades, but I don't know that it can be guaranteed 10, 5, or even 2 years from now. That's a claim perenially made about just about any potential investment, from .com stocks to real estate to famous-painter artworks. Furthermore, I wonder what would happen to the value of Tedrows or Normans if their makers retired, making new ones impossible to get. Being unable to get a new one is unlikely to make used ones lose their value.

 

This is a good point. Personally I don't think we are in a concertina bubble. I believe... or at least hope that

most vintage instruments are being purchased by people who actually want to play them. That being the case

even if prices decline they are likely only to do so over the long term. On the flip side if there are alot of people buying instruments for their "collectable" value, well then it is a whole new ball game. If a decline in interest does begin its lible to result in the bottem dropping out of the market for vintage instruments.

 

Ultimately the overall level of the hybrids is so good that I suspect that value of a particular make would not skyrocket should its maker drop out of the market. I have no reason to play $3000 for a Tedrow when a Morse is avaiable for less than $2000. This is particularly true since $3000 is starting to get close to level of some of makers of more traditional instruments (though that is dependent on currency exchange rates).

 

--

Bill

[m3838]

>It is not my experience that hybrids in good shape lose value.

 

Hmm.

A Morse sold new for $1600 is sold for $1400, or in some cases for $1200.

Perhabs we have a "new car" scenario.

 

>Besides, that argument assumes that the "hybrid" will be resold.

 

It likely be resold. People change instruments, most don't collect them. It looks like many who "collect" simply can't sell them, but nonetheless aquire new instruments.

If you are trying to defend Rich, no need to be. His points are correct. But as an advice to a new player re-sale value must be considered.

I would say, that if you can't afford expencive instrument, make an investment instead: buy good vintage at $3000. If you want to stick to it - fine. Otherwise no problem re-selling.

 

 

>As for being able to resell a vintage instrument "at a profit", that has been the trend >over the last few years/decades, but I don't know that it can be guaranteed 10, 5, or >even 2 years from now.

 

True. However it is only true in principle. Practically though we have high probability of vintage instruments not only grow in value over next few years, but skyrocket in value, if the "concertina renessance" is a reality.

After all, modern accordion reed concertinas are only here because of demand for vintage "true" instruments. No number of modern "hybrids" will likely affect the price of English made. The price of hyrbids may (and probably will ) drop, but not the ones, the said hybrids are shaped after.

[Nathan]

Thanks for all the advice. I think Richard's option #2 is the best choice (a 30-key stagi now, and upgrade later). It would be nice to start out on the better instrument, but the idea of racking up credit card debt for what is basically a luxury purchase doesn't sit well with me.

 

Now the question is, where does one look for a used Stagi in good condition?

[Larry Stout]

Button Box has three used Stagis on their web page.

[JimLucas]

It is not my experience that hybrids in good shape lose value.

Hmm.

A Morse sold new for $1600 is sold for $1400, or in some cases for $1200.

Perhabs we have a "new car" scenario.

Maybe. Maybe not. Maybe depends on where/how sold, or even on whether the seller starts out by asking a lower price than he could have gotten. I have to admit that I haven't been compiling statistics, but I have seen sales of modern mid-range concertinas -- not on eBay, but where the buyer had the chance to handle the instrument and carry it home -- where the price was comparable with the current price or even higher than the "new" price paid a few years earlier.

 

Besides, that argument assumes that the "hybrid" will be resold.

It likely be resold. People change instruments,...

From posts I've read here, I gather that many do, but many don't change from their first quality instrument... and in that I include the "hybrids".

 

I think this is a perfect subject for a poll, to ask how many folks

... 1) Have stayed with their first "hybrid".

... 2) Have stuck with hybrids, but not with their first one.

... 3) Have moved from hybrid to vintage and stayed with their first vintage.

... X) ...etc.

 

But the button for starting a new Poll still seems to be missing, and trying to run a poll by asking people to post and then trying collect the results is not a good way to do it. If Paul fixes the polling function, I'll try to remember to start one.

 

If you are trying to defend Rich,...

Nope. He doesn't need me for that.

 

I would say, that if you can't afford expencive instrument, make an investment instead: buy good vintage at $3000. If you want to stick to it - fine. Otherwise no problem re-selling.

Now you've lost me. If somebody can't afford one, then they should buy one as an investment? How, if they can't afford one?

 

As for being able to resell a vintage instrument "at a profit", that has been the trend over the last few years/decades, but I don't know that it can be guaranteed 10, 5, or even 2 years from now.

True. However it is only true in principle.

Only in principle? But if it can't be true in reality, how can it be true in principle. In my worldview, reality rules.

 

Practically though we have high probability of vintage instruments not only grow in value over next few years, but skyrocket in value, if the "concertina renessance" is a reality.

That's what has been said of the real estate and stock markets just before (though not only just before) numerous "corrections" and even crashes. My own feeling is that the general market in vintage concertinas has somewhat levelled off, at least for now, but the bottom isn't likely to drop out any time soon. But I can't be sure. When it comes to the future, nobody can.

 

After all, modern accordion reed concertinas are only here because of demand for vintage "true" instruments. No number of modern "hybrids" will likely affect the price of English made. The price of hyrbids may (and probably will ) drop, but not the ones, the said hybrids are shaped after.

I think you're wrong on that. While I agree that we have several "new" makers as the result of demand, I think that their existence has relieved some of the price pressure on all but the very best vintage instruments, and maybe even on them. If it weren't for the modern makers I think prices would be higher even though fewer people would be learning to play concertina as a result. Can't prove it, though.

[Dave Weinstein]

I have no reason to play $3000 for a Tedrow when a Morse is avaiable for less than $2000. This is particularly true since $3000 is starting to get close to level of some of makers of more traditional instruments (though that is dependent on currency exchange rates).

 

Where do you get that $3000 figure?

 

http://hmi.homewood.net/prices/

 

--Dave

[Henk van Aalten]

I think this is a perfect subject for a poll, to ask how many folks

... 1) Have stayed with their first "hybrid".

... 2) Have stuck with hybrids, but not with their first one.

... 3) Have moved from hybrid to vintage and stayed with their first vintage.

... X) ...etc.

 

But the button for starting a new Poll still seems to be missing, and trying to run a poll by asking people to post and then trying collect the results is not a good way to do it. If Paul fixes the polling function, I'll try to remember to start one.

That would be a good idea Jim, but first be clear about your definition of "hybrid". If it is only accordeon-reeded you miss the Suttners, Wakker's new model, Wally Carrols, etc.

[bill_mchale]

I have no reason to play $3000 for a Tedrow when a Morse is avaiable for less than $2000. This is particularly true since $3000 is starting to get close to level of some of makers of more traditional instruments (though that is dependent on currency exchange rates).

 

Where do you get that $3000 figure?

 

http://hmi.homewood.net/prices/

 

--Dave

 

Dave,

I was responding to the idea that the value of Tedrows might skyrocket if Bob Tedrow retired. Upon rereading it, I can see that my post wasn't clear enough on this. I simply meant that as long as there are a bunch of other hybrid makers (who are making excellent instruments that is) that there is little reason for any of the hybrids to suddenly become valuable because their maker retires. While most of us have preferences amongst the hybrid makers, I suspect that for most of us, the preferences are strong enough that we would pay a significant premium for a used example of that instrument when we can get very nice instruments from other manufacturers for significantly less.

 

--

Bill

[JimLucas]

If Paul fixes the polling function, I'll try to remember to start one.

That would be a good idea Jim, but first be clear about your definition of "hybrid". If it is only accordeon-reeded you miss the Suttners, Wakker's new model, Wally Carrols, etc.

Precisely. Those aren't "vintage", but they are "vintage-type". I think they should be classed with modern Dippers and Wheatstones, not with Morse, Geuns-Wakker, Marcus, etc.

[m3838]

Clarifying my "can't afford, so buy expencive" remark.

 

Just in case there is a question, which I doubt, here is the explanation.

If you can't afford good instrument, it is better not have any. Or go the other way and buy very decent string instrument, whistle, harmonica etc. for only $500 and be set for life.

If you are bent on overpriced entities like concertinas, it is better to borrow money and buy very good, very expencive instrument with the good chance of it's price to go up, than to waste your money of junk. Or in less dramatic case lose value of your instrument, if you will have to part with it (God forbid).

If Morse is re-selling for ti's selling price - I'm glad for the Button Box, good job guys.

But I've seen prices lower, even on this very site. May be I'm wrong. OK. Just the word of caution. Depends on how poor someone is. Concertina is certainly not for needy.

I agree with Harmonica idea. Perfect instrument!

I mean if you are performer, or frequent visitor of sessions, you probably want to have a set of quality harmonicas, and it may be more expencive (about $400-$500) plus they go out of tune quickly, so keep this in mind. But for an amateur a $15 will buy alot.

[david_boveri]

If Paul fixes the polling function, I'll try to remember to start one.

That would be a good idea Jim, but first be clear about your definition of "hybrid". If it is only accordeon-reeded you miss the Suttners, Wakker's new model, Wally Carrols, etc.

Precisely. Those aren't "vintage", but they are "vintage-type". I think they should be classed with modern Dippers and Wheatstones, not with Morse, Geuns-Wakker, Marcus, etc.

 

thats what i thought. hybrid has the connotation of "mixed", i.e. mixing accordian reeds with concertina body. i also dont think anyone is suggesting nathan shell out the money and wait 3+ years for a vintage-type concertina.

 

nathan, i would say it all depends on what you want. i have a stagi, but outgrew it in a year and a half. i am now patiently waiting my edgley to arrive to keep me company for 3 years until my carroll is ready.

 

if you could save up the money, i would definitely go with a hybrid. if you are strapped for cash and dont want to wait the several month waiting list + the time to save the money, i would go for a stagi. if i could do it all over again i wouldnt do anything differently, because i couldnt afford to by a hybrid or vintage type until now. i think you just needs to understand if you buy a stagi and are serious, it would be a temporary instrument, which everyone so far has made clear.