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#1 Shakedown

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Posted 18 August 2017 - 12:40 PM

Hello everyone. I recently bought a 20 key Stagi R-8-2 concertina(from what I can tell). It is still in a very good condition and it is actually meant to be a gift for my dad.

I love playing instruments so I am very excited, since I have it for a few months before handing it over to my dad.....so I thought I would learn/play as much as I can and if it is something that I enjoy playing I can potentially get myself one, or if not I have lost nothing since I know my dad will still love the gift!

So the first thing I would love some clarification on is the key layout of this concertina. What I can tell from the charts I found online, this seems to be a C/G but the 6th key on the left hand is a G/D and not a B/D as some charts indicate. What is more common?.... a layout with this 6th key in G/D or B/D and does tabs usually take the G/D or the B/D note into consideration? Why is there a difference?....different manufacturers?

I will leave it at one question for now but I have plenty more....but I'll first see what google comes up with before wasting to much of your time.

Thanks in advance for any information/advice you might share!

#2 Daniel Hersh

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Posted 19 August 2017 - 01:22 AM

Which key is the "6th" key?



#3 Shakedown

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Posted 19 August 2017 - 05:15 AM

Which key is the "6th" key?

Hi Daniel. Thanks for your reply. Let me first apologise, since I did a poor job at explaining what I was after. Let me try again...:)

I have multiple button/note layout charts that I found online. They all seem to be identical but vary only at one button. This is the 1st button in the G row of keys. It's the button you play with your pinky on your left hand. On the one chart it shows this button to have the notes G/D which is the same as my concertina. On other charts this same button is also shown to have the notes A/B or B/D. The rest of the buttons on these charts are identical.

I was just wondering what the most common/standard notes for this button is? Would my concertina with the G/D notes be more of an exception or more the norm?

I ask this because I would assume that instructional books, tutorials etc. would use the most common layout correct?

I hope this explains it better.

Dan

#4 gcoover

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Posted 19 August 2017 - 04:22 PM

Hi Dan,

Looks like they just blindly copied the same pattern from the C-row, making that button G and D. Most 30-button instruments I've seen have that #6 LHS button as B/A, but I have seen B/D on several 20-button instruments.

 

As you will learn there is an amazing lack of standardization when it comes to the Anglo, especially in the top (third) row of 30-button instruments.

 

If you're playing in the Irish style it won't pose much of a problem since few tunes go down that far. If you're playing in the harmonic style with bass notes and chords you'll end up playing a note that will be in the same chord but not exactly what a tutor might be calling for. But probably close enough - adaptation is the key!

 

 

Gary



#5 Mikefule

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Posted 19 August 2017 - 04:29 PM

If I have understood correctly, you mean the lowest sounding button on the left hand on the G row  That's the button nearest to your little finger on the first row that your finger tips reach when you put them through the straps.  Is that right?

 

I have 3 Anglo concertinas and they all have different notes on that button.  There are various technical reasons I could go into, but for now, suffice to say that this particular button is the one that is most likely to differ from any diagram you find.

 

Don't worry about it:

 

1)  Any of the various combinations will still give you the G major chord on the push.

 

2)  You will seldom if ever go that far down the keyboard with a melody (rather than the accompaniment)

 

3)  Whatever note they have put there on the pull will give you a useful chord of one sort or another.

 

In short, there's a reason why the designer chose those particular notes.  Play to the strengths of the instrument that you have.

 

A 20 button Anglo is not much more than 2 harmonicas and a hand pump, but with practice, it can become a versatile instrument and enjoyable to play.  I love my 20 button although I also have a 30 and a 38.



#6 Shakedown

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 02:37 AM

Hi Gary and Mikefule

Thank you so much for your answers. This is precisely the information I was looking for.

Gary.... as I've been looking for resources on the 20 button Anglo, your book on Civil War concertina and YouTube channel has definitely popped up several times! From someone that has no background on concertina music, your YouTube channel is a tremendous asset for someone like me wanting to play songs from your book. For now I will be using your "The first gun is fired" Tab that you posted here on the forum but have ordered your book through Amazon and I am eagerly awaiting its arrival next week! From your answer I assume in your book this button is expected to be a B/A?

Dan

#7 Mikefule

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 11:57 AM

Hi Gary and Mikefule

Thank you so much for your answers. This is precisely the information I was looking for.

Gary.... as I've been looking for resources on the 20 button Anglo, your book on Civil War concertina and YouTube channel has definitely popped up several times! From someone that has no background on concertina music, your YouTube channel is a tremendous asset for someone like me wanting to play songs from your book. For now I will be using your "The first gun is fired" Tab that you posted here on the forum but have ordered your book through Amazon and I am eagerly awaiting its arrival next week! From your answer I assume in your book this button is expected to be a B/A?

Dan

I have a few 20 button videos on my channel too:  https://youtu.be/hYfte-gRcI0



#8 Shakedown

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 03:32 PM

I have a few 20 button videos on my channel too:  https://youtu.be/hYfte-gRcI0

Hi Mikefule

Thanks for directing me to your channel. I have already viewed pretty much all your concertina videos and will definitely be back there! Great sounding instruments btw! What make is your 20 button? It seems like a lot less work to play than mine....but then again that is probably because I still suck and have no technique!...:)

Since my frame of reference is non existent when it comes to concertina music I keep wondering how people go about learning a new song. Do they try to find some sheet music?....is it mostly just worked out by ear? For my untrained concertina ear... listening to all these songs it seems there is a lot of slight and sometimes not so slight overlap in melody between different songs and that is something I think I might struggle with as I try to conquer this beast! Anyways..thanks again for pointing me to your channel.

All the best
Dan

#9 gcoover

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Posted 20 August 2017 - 09:56 PM

Hi Gary and Mikefule

Thank you so much for your answers. This is precisely the information I was looking for.

Gary.... as I've been looking for resources on the 20 button Anglo, your book on Civil War concertina and YouTube channel has definitely popped up several times! From someone that has no background on concertina music, your YouTube channel is a tremendous asset for someone like me wanting to play songs from your book. For now I will be using your "The first gun is fired" Tab that you posted here on the forum but have ordered your book through Amazon and I am eagerly awaiting its arrival next week! From your answer I assume in your book this button is expected to be a B/A?

Dan

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the kind comments about the videos - they're hardly professional quality but at least they show what the tunes sound like and prove they can be played on a 20-button Anglo. 

 

Yes, LHS #6 in the book will be B/A, but I'm sure you'll be able to make something work in its place. Most tunes are pretty tough and can stand a few note changes here and there. And who knows, you might even discover something that sounds better!

 

Some of the Civil War tunes will be pretty hard since they mostly have full accompaniment, I'd suggest just learning the melody to begin with and then filling in the left hand later. It takes a bit of brain rewiring and finger muscle training to make sense of the push-pull action. Since you're just getting started you might also want to consider "Easy Anglo 1-2-3" (shameless plug) - there are some free samples here on cnet and also some via the Look Inside feature on Amazon. 

 

Enjoy!

 

Gary



#10 Shakedown

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Posted 21 August 2017 - 12:24 AM

Hi Dan,
Thanks for the kind comments about the videos - they're hardly professional quality but at least they show what the tunes sound like and prove they can be played on a 20-button Anglo. 
 
Yes, LHS #6 in the book will be B/A, but I'm sure you'll be able to make something work in its place. Most tunes are pretty tough and can stand a few note changes here and there. And who knows, you might even discover something that sounds better!
 
Some of the Civil War tunes will be pretty hard since they mostly have full accompaniment, I'd suggest just learning the melody to begin with and then filling in the left hand later. It takes a bit of brain rewiring and finger muscle training to make sense of the push-pull action. Since you're just getting started you might also want to consider "Easy Anglo 1-2-3" (shameless plug) - there are some free samples here on cnet and also some via the Look Inside feature on Amazon. 
 
Enjoy!
 
Gary


Hi Gari
Thanks for the info and tips. I will try and find the samples for Anglo 123 and give it a go!.The main reason for going with your Civil war tunes first is the fact I can watch them and listen to them on your YouTube channel. Are the 123Anglo songs there to?...sorry I'm still going through all the Civil war tunes so have not checked yet.

I heard a few tunes that seems very tough but I'll try and pick the easiest ones...so far it's going well with "The first gun is fired" hopefully I will have it down before the end of the week! I have small kids and I am finding it far harder to just sit down and practice as I did when learning guitar more than 20 years now. Oh what I could do with all that free time now..:)

Last question... when I finish learning songs from your books, is it ok to post me playing them on YouTube? Kind of a record for me but also to get some feedback potentially that will help me improve.

All the best
Dan

#11 Mikefule

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Posted 21 August 2017 - 03:09 AM

 

I have a few 20 button videos on my channel too:  https://youtu.be/hYfte-gRcI0

Hi Mikefule

Thanks for directing me to your channel. I have already viewed pretty much all your concertina videos and will definitely be back there! Great sounding instruments btw! What make is your 20 button? It seems like a lot less work to play than mine....but then again that is probably because I still suck and have no technique!... :)

Since my frame of reference is non existent when it comes to concertina music I keep wondering how people go about learning a new song. Do they try to find some sheet music?....is it mostly just worked out by ear? For my untrained concertina ear... listening to all these songs it seems there is a lot of slight and sometimes not so slight overlap in melody between different songs and that is something I think I might struggle with as I try to conquer this beast! Anyways..thanks again for pointing me to your channel.

All the best
Dan

 

My 20 button Anglo is a Lachenal.  It was probably made in the late 1880s or a little bit later.  5 fold bellows that were restored before I bought it.  Steel reeds.  Bone buttons.  

 

Lachenal also made instruments wth brass reeds but the one that I played was nowhere near as good as steel reeds.

 

My instrument is C/G.  I mainly play in the harmonic style.  That means melody mainly on the right hand and chords, base notes and octaves mainly on the left hand.  It is important to this style to learn the various ways of getting a scale in either of the two main keys by crossing the rows.

 

On the C row (outside row) you have C D E F G A B

 

On the G row (inside row) you have G A B C D E F#

 

Therefore, the only difference is that on the C row you have F and on the G row you have F#.  Apart from that, it is always possible to borrow one or more notes from the "wrong" row if it suits your fingering or helps you to find a harmony.

 

Playing along the C row, you can go  little bit further up the scale.  Playing on the G row, you can go quite a lot further down the scale.

 

Playing in C the easiest place to start, and you have some rich chords available.  However, once you have made some progress and developed some confidence, there are some "better" options for some tunes if you play them in G.

 

The 20 button Anglo is not a toy, but a serious musical instrument.  I believe that Lachenal made over 100,000 of them.  Of course, it does not offer the versatility and range of the 30 button, but it has everything you need for folk/traditional tunes and simple pop songs.



#12 Shakedown

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Posted 21 August 2017 - 03:31 AM

Hi Mikefule

Great info...thank you. I think I to will probably focus on the harmonic style of playing since this makes most sense to me at this stage.It helps my brain deal with all the information I have to process while playing..:)

I thought it might be a lachenal. I really like the sound of it but also your 30 button...the 30 button sounds a lot smoother than the 20 button but I also do like the slightly more 'raw' sound of the 20 button.

Thanks again
Dan

#13 Mikefule

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 01:24 AM

Hi Mikefule


I thought it might be a lachenal. I really like the sound of it but also your 30 button...the 30 button sounds a lot smoother than the 20 button but I also do like the slightly more 'raw' sound of the 20 button.

Thanks again
Dan

My 20 button is a Lachenal and is raw and clicky.  My 30 is a Dipper that cost me more than 10 times as much.  It's smoother, sweeter and more beautiful all round, but I still like a thrash on the 20.  Being more limited in scope, the sound is uniquely Anglo.   Having 30 or more buttons allows or encourages you to smooth off those edges.  You gain something but you can also lose something in the process.



#14 gcoover

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 05:03 AM

 

Hi Dan,
Thanks for the kind comments about the videos - they're hardly professional quality but at least they show what the tunes sound like and prove they can be played on a 20-button Anglo. 
 
Yes, LHS #6 in the book will be B/A, but I'm sure you'll be able to make something work in its place. Most tunes are pretty tough and can stand a few note changes here and there. And who knows, you might even discover something that sounds better!
 
Some of the Civil War tunes will be pretty hard since they mostly have full accompaniment, I'd suggest just learning the melody to begin with and then filling in the left hand later. It takes a bit of brain rewiring and finger muscle training to make sense of the push-pull action. Since you're just getting started you might also want to consider "Easy Anglo 1-2-3" (shameless plug) - there are some free samples here on cnet and also some via the Look Inside feature on Amazon. 
 
Enjoy!
 
Gary


Hi Gari
Thanks for the info and tips. I will try and find the samples for Anglo 123 and give it a go!.The main reason for going with your Civil war tunes first is the fact I can watch them and listen to them on your YouTube channel. Are the 123Anglo songs there to?...sorry I'm still going through all the Civil war tunes so have not checked yet.

I heard a few tunes that seems very tough but I'll try and pick the easiest ones...so far it's going well with "The first gun is fired" hopefully I will have it down before the end of the week! I have small kids and I am finding it far harder to just sit down and practice as I did when learning guitar more than 20 years now. Oh what I could do with all that free time now.. :)

Last question... when I finish learning songs from your books, is it ok to post me playing them on YouTube? Kind of a record for me but also to get some feedback potentially that will help me improve.

All the best
Dan

 

Hey Dan,

Of course it's ok to post your videos on YouTube! But do consider your potential audience before posting anything that's not ready or your best effort. Make something musical that others will enjoy listening to!

 

Gary



#15 Mikefule

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Posted 22 August 2017 - 08:39 AM

 

 

Hey Dan,

Of course it's ok to post your videos on YouTube! But do consider your potential audience before posting anything that's not ready or your best effort. Make something musical that others will enjoy listening to!

 

Gary

 

Good advice.  Post something you can play completely confidently, not the tune you've just learned - or are still learning.  I can play a tune 10 times in a row, but as soon as the camera is switched on, my fingers turn to spaghetti.



#16 Shakedown

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Posted 23 August 2017 - 07:31 AM

Hi Gary and Mikfule

Thanks again for your advise and insight. If I do decide to post something I will try and make it decent!..:)

Gary....your book has arrived and I'm looking forward to exploring it! Maybe tonight...light a fire..put some meat on the BBQ and play a few notes on the concertina!...:)

Dan



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