Jeffries On E-bay

[Clive Thorne]

The fact is, nobody did.

But Jim as I said, Chris Algar thought he could buy it for £2800 and obviously thought that he could sell it for more than that. Lets face it, as trader he will know better than anyone what he could sell it on for, and would not be interested in buying something at full Market price. Hence my assertion that he probably thought the retail value > £3k

 

Even if I had had the £3000, I would have travelled to look at it first, before bidding. Perhaps it was the buying blind that put people off.

 

 

Clive

[JimLucas]

Can there be a reason for one Jeffries to be worth $6000 and another to be worth $7800?

$7800? Maybe if somebody found a Jeffries that had never even been played, but sat in its box on a shelf until now. (I once saw a Wheatstone like that, but never a Jeffries.)

 

But even $6000... do you know anyone (aside from the $7800 buyer) who has paid that much for a Jeffries? Not an amount in pounds that would be $6000 at today's exchange rate, but an amount that was $6000 at the time they paid it? Currently, $6000 is about £3250. A year ago £3250 would have been "only" about $5200. (And £3000 would have been about $4750.)

 

As I pointed out before, assuming no change in prices in pounds, in dollar terms they've still gone up by about 15% in the past year and 30% in somewhat over 2 years. So I wonder, are Americans actually paying these "inflated" prices? Meanwhile, from an Irish perspective I believe the exchange against the UK pound has remained fairly steady, while prices have actually dropped in terms of Australian dollars.

 

I suspect (I don't know) that American purchases in the UK concertina market have dropped considerably over the last couple of years, and that any net flow of instruments between the two countries may be changing direction.

 

Added later: Oops! I think I may have argued the wrong point above. The $6000 price that was quoted was in Australian dollars, not US dollars. $6000 Australian is still "only" $4500 US.

Edited March 7, 2004 by JimLucas

[JimLucas]

But Jim as I said, Chris Algar thought he could buy it for £2800 and obviously thought that he could sell it for more than that.

But how much more? You assumed "a modest" 10% profit. His bid should represent the most he would be willing to pay, since he would actually pay less if the other bids didn't push the price that high. If I were in his business, I might make my bid limit one that produced no profit at all, though I wouldn't want to take a loss. Why? I couldn't do no-profit on all deals, of course, but I could afford to do it occasionally in order to maintain my reputation for being able to supply high-quality instruments.

 

Even if I had had the £3000, I would have travelled to look at it first, before bidding. Perhaps it was the buying blind that put people off.

 

Certainly, less knowledge means greater uncertainty/risk, and that should affect the amount you're willing to bid. The fact that the instrument was purchased from Barleycorn 5 years ago in restored condition would generally be considered a positive factor, a reduction of risk. On that count, Chris might know more than we do, even without examining the instrument. He might well remember the particular instrument, and if he knows the person who bought it, he might even have some idea as to how it's been treated in the interim.

 

Now I'm not saying Chris couldn't get £3100 -- or more -- in reselling that instrument. What I am saying is that it's unwise to assume that he could. And of course, this is all after the fact. During the auction, we had no way of knowing whether he had bid £2800, or £2300, or £3300, or whatever. And I think it's likely that his bid would have been lower -- perhaps much lower -- for that very same instrument if he didn't have prior knowledge of it.

[d.elliott]

So much for Jeffries market forces economy!

 

If you take the point made by Clive, £2,800 is an indication of a dealer's acceptable purchase price, the economics will run something like:

 

£2,800,

 

plus between £150 and £250 repair/ service/ overhaul cost (subject to condidtion and assuming bellows are sound);

 

plus around 20% markup.

 

I would think that a dealers target value would probably be closer to £3,600 or more.

 

(S)He would then say its insurance value is getting up to £4,000. The happy (but skint) new owner would then take on board the percieved value of £4k, (we all like a bargin!) and so the spiral continues.

 

And yes, I do know some people (personaly) who buy and keep concertinas as an investment.

 

What breaks my heart is the collection in the Horniman where tens and tens of instruments are treated like artifacts, decaying and unplayed. Heaven knows what they would be worth, in playing order; and what joy they could release amoungst the musical community.

 

Dave

[JimLucas]

So much for Jeffries market forces economy!

Well, Dave, I think you've outlined the philosophy that in other realms creates boom-and-bust cycles.

Nothing can grow without limit; even cancer and nuclear explosions are eventually self-limiting.

 

Even if all your assumptions were true (I'll get to that), eventually we would run out of people able -- never mind willing -- to pay the increase to the next-higher level of the spiral. Are we there, yet? I don't know. But even last summer I noticed several instruments on eBay going for noticeably less than similar instruments 6 months or a year earlier.

 

If you take the point made by Clive, £2,800 is an indication of a dealer's acceptable purchase price,...

I wouldn't take that as typical. As I've already argued, it should represent the maximum that dealer would be willing to pay. He would hope to get it for less. And on that basis I suspect it's also higher than he would bid on an instrument he knew less about. So I think it's unwise to take that bid as a kind of "market average" wholesale price.

 

...the economics will run something like:

£2,800,

plus between £150 and £250 repair/ service/ overhaul cost (subject to condidtion and assuming bellows are sound);

Bought from Chris 5 years ago. Unless it's been badly abused, the bellows are almost certainly sound (possibly even new) and the overhaul cost may in fact be negligible.

 

plus around 20% markup.

20% may be a good target average markup, but in this business one can't apply the same markup to every instrument. Instruments obtained at bargain prices shoud be marked up more, and can compensate for instruments that bring little or no profit. (Doing your own restoration can also make a big difference in expense and thus in the markup requirement.)

 

I would think that a dealers target value would probably be closer to £3,600 or more.

Nice as a target, but what if it's not realistic?

 

For that matter, what if he thinks he could sell it for £3600, but that the number of buyers able to pay that much is severely limited, that most can't afford more than £3000? Word gets out that the "dealer selling price" is £3600, and suddenly individual sellers are expecting him to pay more than he can make a profit on, and in effect his supply has dried up.

 

That's seems to be what happened on this auction, the seller expecting more than the market was willing to pay. No one, neither dealer nor private buyer, bid as much as the seller's reserve. That alone suggests that -- regardless of the argument that led to it -- your derived price of £3600 is not a realistic expectation. (Perhaps achieveable in an individual case, but not to be expected.)

 

And yes, I do know some people (personaly) who buy and keep concertinas as an investment.

Do they make a living at it?

[Greg Jowaisas]

With all due respect to logic and speculation, why doesn't someone email or ring up Chris and find out his current price on Jeffries models?

 

My inquiries to Chris have consistantly put C/G Jeffries and vintage Crabb prices in the 3000 to 3500 pound range.

 

I have the impression that Mr. Algar does not have any trouble selling these instruments. A quick turnover would allow him to work with a smaller profit margin. (But we are back to speculation again!)

 

At any rate several other Jeffries I have followed recently had asking prices of $6000. and $7000. US dollars. They both sold but I cannot confirm the final sale prices.

 

One last thought. It is often a dilemna for musicians who would like to have a quality instrument to come up with the cash. Meanwhile we are buying or financing automobiles that cost as much or more than a vintage instrument. After 5 to 10 years the car is usually ready for the scrap heap; a good concertina is ready for the next 100 years!

 

Perhaps we need a "Concertina Bank" to enable us to pay off an instrument on monthly installments. Certainly makes "cents" to me!

 

Regards, Greg

[Erik Murray]

But even $6000... do you know anyone (aside from the $7800 buyer) who has paid that much for a Jeffries?

Yes, I have, at the end of last year, $6000 US dollars. It's a very nice instrument, not mint or gold plated or anything. The cost seemed in line with the going rate as far as I could see. Someone forwarded me an email from Chris Algar that wasn't specific but indicated a range of cost for various types of things. The high end Jeffries and Wheatstone figure was around 3500 (pounds). Since that time there was a Jeffries offered on the Buy and Sell forum for $6000. I don't know whether it sold but I assumed it did. Reading comments that people make like "...if you can even find one for sale", can certainly make one more eager to buy. When I decided to look into getting a good concertina last year there was a Jeffries on Ebay. I had some correspondence with the seller. It was new to the market, so to speak, having belonged to the seller's friend's grandfather. They started the bidding pretty high based on having seen a couple of Jeffries sell on Ebay for over $4000 in the past year. This one went for over $5000. I only had a low bid. I was worried about paying top dollar for something needing restoration. I ended up wishing I had gone for it. At the time I came across a Suttner being sold by Elderly Instruments. I decided I'd buy that and be sure of having a good instrument to play immediately. Wrong. It was unplayable, out of tune and making various weird noises. That was for $3500. They offered to pay for putting it in order but I didn't want to wait months for that. I returned it. It went back onto their listing but shown as On Hold. I figured they were having it tuned. Someone posted notice of it here in one these forums and it was gone shortly afterward. The scratches near the screws looked like a drunk attempted some repairs and it came with a bag of spare springs. It's probably fixed up and serving someone well now. My other dealings with Elderly have been good. Concertinas are not their area of expertise. There's another funny (at this point) story here. Elderly sold my mandolin, on consignment, and the Suttner was returned about the same time. I called to be sure the mandolin got there and it had but the guy told me that they weren't interested in the concertina. He said something about it not being as good as a Stagi or Bastari! It turned out someone else had sent them some junk concertina and they weren't sure who.

E

[JimLucas]

But even $6000... do you know anyone (aside from the $7800 buyer) who has paid that much for a Jeffries?

Yes, I have, at the end of last year, $6000 US dollars. [...]

Ouch! I guess I'm lucky I got mine when I did. And I'm sure they were bargains even back then. I guess I'm just having trouble believing that in these hard economic times, prices on concertinas can continue to inflate at double-digit rates.

 

Supply and demand are funny things, though. So much can depend on perception. You quote,

Reading comments that people make like "...if you can even find one for sale", can certainly make one more eager to buy.

Yet I've seen more Jeffries sold in the past year than individual Jeffries instruments I heard of existing during my first 15 years as a concertina player -- and occasional repairer (in America). Impatience can be another factor. Some folks are willing to wait years for just the right instrument... or just the right price. Others are willing to pay a huge premium just to have it now!

 

Is it just Jeffries, or are prices on other high end anglos -- e.g., better Linotas and New Model Lachenals -- inflating as fast? What about the cheaper anglos, Englishes, and duets?

 

One more point: A Barleycorn price on a Jeffries is based on two reputations, Jeffries' and Chris Algar's. What fascinates me is that there are others -- especially those who don't deal mainly in concertinas (I dare not name names) -- who seem to get away with charging more for less quality.

 

And uniformity in either instruments or prices is still not the rule. You paid $6000 for a Jeffries, and you heard of somebody who paid $7800, but the fact is that the highest recorded bid in this eBay auction was still only $5300.

[JimLucas]

With all due respect to logic and speculation, why doesn't someone email or ring up Chris and find out his current price on Jeffries models?

Please don't, unless you're planning to buy.

My experience is that Chris deliberately doesn't advertise a stock of instruments and prices for all to see; he listens to your individual needs -- including price -- and then presents you with zero or more instruments that he thinks might meet those needs.

If you just contact him to ask about "current prices", you're wasting his time, and probably your own.

 

My inquiries to Chris have consistantly put C/G Jeffries and vintage Crabb prices in the 3000 to 3500 pound range.

Then I guess that's about right. But his instruments are fully restored. I would expect to pay considerably less for an instrument that was unrestored, or whose condition I didn't know.

 

I have the impression that Mr. Algar does not have any trouble selling these instruments.

He doesn't.

 

A quick turnover would allow him to work with a smaller profit margin.

Volume, not just speed, is the key. I don't think there are enough Jeffries instruments to support volume dealing.

I think it's fair to say that the bulk of his business and his profit come from the sale of non-Jeffries instruments.

[Greg Jowaisas]

Which brings us to an idea which is finally beginning to make sense to me:

 

While there is something unique and delightful about a Jeffries sound, there are many fine and delightful instruments out there that are not half as expensive as a Jeffries. (The reworked Lachenals that Paul Groff sells come to mind)

 

And, whether you're a fan of the accordian reed or not, the quality, rivetted action and especially the lower cost of concertinas made by the Tedrows, Edgleys, Morses, and other current makers have much to recommend themselves to prospective buyers.

 

Although a quality concertina is not inexpensive, it seems to me, we are lucky to live in a time when there are many concertina choices.

 

Greg

[Alan Day]

When you think that some of the new hand made instrument prices are in the £4000 price mark I know what I would buy given the same option.Jeffries are not plentifull a small number of anglos have gone recently at about £2700 to £2900 but these had work to do on them.If I were younger I would buy now or certainly if I was American crash in as soon as the Dollar rate improved.I think Jeffries are cheap in comparison and you are buying a concertina for life not just for Xmas.

Good Jeffries and Wheatstones are available now but what happens if our instrument starts becoming more popular,like it did when I bought mine,you will regret that you did not buy.I think the prices will never go down they may be static but I cannot see them becoming any cheaper.

Al

[JimLucas]

I think the prices will never go down they may be static but I cannot see them becoming any cheaper.

You may be right, but one never can tell.

 

If the popularity of concertinas does decline again, I expect it will take some time, but that doesn't mean it can't happen. I've met more than one individual who got a beautiful instrument for £5 in the 1950s or '60s... because "nobody" wanted them. Indeed, many of the instruments coming on the market today seem to have been neglected in closets and attics for anywhere from decades to a century. They were quite popular for a while... and then they weren't.

 

A few decades earlier there was the Great Depression, at least in the US, when many families had to sell everything they had of value at pitifully low prices, just to put food on the table. Think it can't happen again? Well, I hope not, but the only reason the US unemployment statistics aren't climbing at the moment is because there's a time limit on government unemployment benefits, and when you've passed that limit you officially become not part of the work force, and so you are not counted as "unemployed" even if you have no job and are in fact actively looking for one. If they reported how many of those people there are, it might scare you.

 

Sorry for what may seem a political polemic, but my point is really that if you tell yourself, "It can't happen here," you might be lucky, but you could also be (as we say in America) "cruisin' for a bruisin'." That certainly doesn't apply only to concertinas -- consider the stock markets, -- but neither does it necessarily exclude them.

[Chris Ghent]

I have no trouble with the concept of $6000US being a fair price for a good concertina and for some concertinas it may well be a bargain.

 

I have a Jeffries G/D. Every time I pick it up it makes me feel better. The thing is a joy germ. It seems to defy the theory of relativity; it is bigger than the box it lives in. No matter the price, it is cheaper than chocolate bars, new cars or therapy sessions, boats, travel, fast women, name your own money drain...

 

When I found it, cheap and by chance, I had no idea what I was buying, just buying on a brand name. And I certainly would not have paid US$6000 for it then. But I would now. I'd pay it like a shot. If I could guarantee getting a C/G as good (not every Jeffries is great) I'd pay that tomorrow. Just give me overnight to work out where the money is coming from. You don't get so much for kids these days...

 

Chris

[Clive Thorne]

Out of interest I looked out the valuation of my early Jeffries 36 key G/C that Colin Dipper did for me last year while he was doing some work on it.

 

He valued it at £3500 for insurance purposes (which we all know is normally well above market value), and stated £2850 for an equivalent new instrument, which I presume was what he would actually charge.

 

 

So, if it was stolen what would I do, pay £2850 and wait four years, or spend £3000 on a 38 key jeffries (gaining two extra keys) that I could have now?

 

Much as I would love to own a Dipper, its no contest really, is it?

 

 

 

Clive

[Henk van Aalten]

I have a Jeffries G/D. Every time I pick it up it makes me feel better. The thing is a joy germ. It seems to defy the theory of relativity; it is bigger than the box it lives in. No matter the price, it is cheaper than chocolate bars, new cars or therapy sessions, boats, travel, fast women, name your own money drain...

Chris,

 

This is a very nice statement! It's the nicest I heard about the impact that a concertina can have on people.

At the same time it makes me wonder how different this world could have been when...

God created Adam and.... a concertina !

 

Henk

[JimLucas]

[...it makes me wonder how different this world could have been when...

God created Adam and.... a concertina  !

Much as I love my concertinas, squeezing them just isn't the same as sqeezing ... .

........ Among other things, my concertinas don't squeeze back.

[Alan Day]

I have had my Jeffries valued and insured for £4000 each.Which I think is about right for a top Quality instrument.May be a smidgen high for the market at this time, but what I would expect to pay if thay were stolen

Al

[Paul Groff]

Hello all,

 

A few words about retail and insurance prices on fine anglos.

 

It is hard for me (or I suspect anyone) to comment on this subject without (even subconsciously) "putting a spin" on the data. As always, those who will be looking to buy will have an incentive to say in public that high prices are ridiculous, those looking to sell (or for the instruments they own to appreciate in value) will have an incentive to say that prices will be going up. Some will have a mixture of both motives that are elicited by different situations. I am not accusing anyone of dishonesty here, but it is important for those new to this subject not to take as literal truth a few published opinions about "what concertinas should cost". In fact the only parties who can ESTABLISH a price are a willing seller with instrument in hand and a willing buyer with cash (and/or trade) in hand. The rest is reporting (at best) and gossip (at worst), both perhaps imbued with wishful thinking. As I have written before, though any sale establishes a "price" for a particular set of conditions (time, place, model, condition, trades, etc.), this is only a snapshot of an instrument's longterm VALUE.

 

Alan, I know of several very special Jeffries that have changed hands in England and Ireland for 4000 pounds (sterling) or more, or in America for $7000 to $9000, in the past few years. In almost every case these were bought by players who already had one or more Jeffries and were in an excellent position to appreciate a better one. Most of these were C/Gs, but not all - and to some of the buyers, who own several instruments, the key was not as important as the quality. I fear that even with an insurance settlement of 3500 or 4000 pounds in their pocket, some Jeffries owners might have to look long and hard before finding an adequate replacement for a particular favorite one they had owned and lost. If ever. This is not to demean in any way some of the beautiful concertinas currently being made (which are and should be at least as valuable), only to reflect on the uniqueness and irreplaceable qualities of certain superior antique instruments.

 

Certainly, some Jeffries are available, even from retailers, for much less than this. I sold one for $4000 two years ago, with full guarantee and allowing full-purchase-price credit for the trade-in of an instrument previously bought from me. Since the trade-in required service, the value of the transaction was less than $4000 to me. If this was the kind of Jeffries you liked, you too could be writing in that they all should be $4000. It sounded and played very well, but was a 28 key with a slightly patched original bellows. I believe other American retailers have sold some of the heavier 4-row Jeffries for comparable prices in the last few years. Though some Forum members prefer these 44 (+) key concertinas, the body of Irish-style anglo players who seek a Jeffries tend to prefer the lighter ones and pay more for them.

 

Chris Ghent makes some excellent points, both explicit and implicit. Concertinas are not commodities. Even if I were to find 10 concertinas all described in good faith by their sellers as "38 key Jeffries G/D. fully restored," I think I would find them all different, and as a player I might conclude some are worth twice as much as others. Some sellers don't know the faults of their instruments, others don't WANT to know them. Appraisal of concertinas is subtle and mulitdimensional, and the relative importance of those different dimensions is ranked differently by different players.

 

Again, to Chris G.; it is significant that, FOR MANY OF US (NOT ALL) the more experience one gains as a player, repairman, and (in his case) maker, the more we appreciate the value of a really fine concertina, that was really well-made initially, really well-kept, and really well-restored -- or even upgraded from its original specifications. Sometimes the very best players have a keener sense of discrimination among the highest levels of instrument quality than do the dealers. (There is a story about Matt Molloy helping Paul Davies put relative values on a batch of Pratten flutes, all superb, but some more so).

 

Maybe a larger number of players don't see what all the fuss is about. If they do believe "a Jeffries (or Dipper, etc.) is better than a Lachenal," they may still think that "any Jeffries should be worth X amount." THey are entitled to their view, just as is one man I knew in California who likes his Morse more so than his Dipper. The scatter of market prices (around some perhaps unrepresentative "average") will reflect this mixture of opinions. Jim is right that we can also expect these to fluctuate over time, and that some instruments will lose value. Dave makes an excellent point, too rarely considered by private sellers, that ordinary use (especially by certain players!) as well as accidents, storage conditions, etc., can require costly maintenance or repair before an instrument (even if purchased in excellent condition) can be represented honestly as in excellent condition for resale.

 

This brings us to the issue of wholesale (trade) vs. retail prices and the services offered by professional retailers. We could devote another topic to this subject, which is poorly understood by many players.

 

Judging from comments posted to this forum and expressed to me directly, I sense that many buyers think of ebay (and of private sellers) as retailers, and that prices are being asked and paid accordingly. I fear this reflects a misconception that concertinas (unrestored, or of doubtful condition), should be "bought expensive and repaired cheap." If this opinion prevails, a permanent loss of quality in many of the antique instruments may be the legacy of this period of history.

 

True, some retailers have reacted to the high prices obtained in ebay auctions by selling some of their stock in this way, but didn't Chris T. recently complain to the forum that a "fully-restored" duet purchased in this way needed repairs? I think an auction should be considered just that, and not a retail sale.

 

And this is why I was not surprised to see the ebay Jeffries fail to make a high price. I agree with Clive -- like most potential bidders, I could not determine the value of that instrument. If I had it in hand, I might have made a bid to the reserve -- or declined it even at a lower price.

But if I had bought it (at a fair wholesale price for its model and condition) I would have expected to improve it, and offer additional services before selling it for a fair retail price. And I would be very proud of its value at that price, even if it were too high for Jim!

 

For anyone who may not know this, my comments are from the point of view of a player and teacher who both buys and sells concertinas, based far from the "centers of abundance" of the antique instruments and the best makers. Please take my opinions with the appropriate grain or two of salt!

 

Paul

Edited March 8, 2004 by Paul Groff