Is There Some Trad Form That's Like 5/4 In Time Sig?

[bellowbelle]

For some reason, lately when I invent a new little tune or song (with our without lyrics, but usually with) it seems to want to be in 5/4 time.

 

This is a hard time signature in which to use notation very accurately (for me, anyway) so I usually change my tune to some other time signature, if I'm going to put a copy anywhere, like in the Tune-O-Tron or whatever. So, then, of course, it's not even really the same tune.

 

But, I'm wondering if I'm actually not doing stuff in 5/4 (...I confess, I've always liked songs that have measures with that extra beat tossed in every now and then), or, rather, if there's some kind of tune meter that can be slightly synonymous with a 5/4 time sig (?).

 

I still haven't learned all about the various traditional forms, so, I don't know.

 

Maybe what I'm doing is actually all the usual 3/4 and 4/4, but I'm adding a lot of ...um, what is that called....'holds' or whatever. (There's a word...can't think of it, now!)

[Larry Stout]

The five step waltz from the second half of the 19th century is in 5/4. I don't recall seeing that time signature anywhere else though. Colin Hume wrote an English Country Dance called "The Fifth Dimension" which is in 5/2.

 

Larry

[bellowbelle]

The five step waltz from the second half of the 19th century is in 5/4. I don't recall seeing that time signature anywhere else though. Colin Hume wrote an English Country Dance called "The Fifth Dimension" which is in 5/2.

 

Larry

 

Hmm, The Five Step Waltz....I'd love to hear/see that sometime!

 

I've really only seen 5/4 used for a few measures here and there in ... well, mostly pop music, I guess. (Cat Stevens, etc..) I've never noticed it used for an entire piece.

 

To explain myself a bit more....

 

If I write something that seems to be at least partly in 5/4, I try playing and/or listening to the song while counting-out that meter using my fingers (have never used a metronome). I usually try to fit it into a more normal meter, too, like 4/4 or 3/4 or whatever seems closest, but -- often it's 5/4 that works out just fine, and nothing else seems to work out.

 

But, of course, when it comes to actually writing out the piece in 5/4.... ...forget it!! Way too hard. Too many ties and holds and whatever.

 

Anyway. Most likely, what would actually make the most sense in writing it out would be to use a more common time signature and then put in 'hold' symbols where needed...fermata... THAT'S the word I wanted!

[Larry Stout]

A reference: Barnes, "A Little Coupledance Book" in the last section, Miscellaneous (pp.219-221) has five pieces in 5/4. They are

Castle's Half and Half

Half and Half

Moonbeams

Five Step Waltz

Skye Boat five step

I think there is a clip of the five step walz in the dance demonstrations on the Libreary of Congress web site too.

http://rs6.loc.gov/ammem/dihtml/divideos.html#vc061

That collection is a wonderful resource.

Larry

[Boney]

But, of course, when it comes to actually writing out the piece in 5/4.... ...forget it!! Way too hard. Too many ties and holds and whatever.

I don't understand...if it's in 5/4, then it should be easy to notate in 5/4. If there are a lot of ties across bars, it's probably not in 5/4.

 

I'll add there are a lot of odd beats thrown into American old-time tunes and songs. You'll often see a note held for an extra beat at the end of a phrase, which I'd probably notate as a single bar of 5/4 if the piece is in 4/4 generally. You could use a fermata, but to me that implies the rhythm isn't strict, and the note can be held for an indeterminant amount of time. In the tunes I'm talking about, the rhythm is steady, there's just an extra beat here and there. I've seen this in some Irish songs too.

[Animaterra]

Could you make us a recording of an example, Wendy? I'm inclined to agree with Boney-

...if it's in 5/4, then it should be easy to notate in 5/4. If there are a lot of ties across bars, it's probably not in 5/4.

 

I arrange lots of music for my women's chorus, and many's the time I write and rewrite, trying to get the meter straight. The only traditional music that I know of that's frequently 5/4 is Balkan!

[Nanette Hooker]

Although not a traditional piece, is Simon Thoumire's "Gloomy-go-round Merry-go-round" in 5/4?

[David Barnert]

Hmm, The Five Step Waltz....I'd love to hear/see that sometime!

The 2nd movement of Tschaikowski's 6th symphony is a very waltz-like movement in 5/4.

 

X:1

T:2nd Mvt, 6th Symphony

C:Tschaikowski

M:5/4

L:1/4

K:D

FG(3A/G/A/Bc|dBc3|AB(3c/B/c/de|fde3|

 

Actually, it's an octave lower, starting in the cellos.

[bellowbelle]

Oops... once again, I missed a bunch of messages. Can't rely on my e-mail, maybe.

 

I'll come back later and catch up....

[bellowbelle]

Could you make us a recording of an example, Wendy? I'm inclined to agree with Boney-

...if it's in 5/4, then it should be easy to notate in 5/4. If there are a lot of ties across bars, it's probably not in 5/4.

 

I arrange lots of music for my women's chorus, and many's the time I write and rewrite, trying to get the meter straight. The only traditional music that I know of that's frequently 5/4 is Balkan!

 

Hm, and I do like what I've heard of Balkan music...maybe that's why.

 

Anyway, I've yet to get a listen to the examples mentioned in this thread. But, I did make a recording of one of my 'what-time-is-it' tunes. It's very short...really, I wrote an 'imaging' poem after reading something about the practice of imaging (meditate/heal yourself, etc.), and then the tune followed. My original words were not what I finally settled on for a lyric.

 

On March 11th, I wrote my tune out in 3/4 and put it in the Tune-O-Tron -- it's record number 868 and is called Silken Sand. My Tunebook is linked in my sig -- the tune is at the end of my tunebook.

 

Anyway, I'll try to attach a copy of an MP3 of singing with concertina, but since I did change the original words a bit, I don't even think I'm getting the same meter that I originally did. I guess I accomodate the words, when I have them -- I don't like to squish words into strict time slots!

 

There's no way that this is sensibly any 5/4 meter, at least not when it comes to writing out notation. But, still, when I count out in 5/4 while listening to it, it does actually begin and end pretty well in that. Meh. 3/4 is okay for the record, I guess!

 

There's a pic, too, that has the poem on it...I'll try to attach that too.

[Daniel Hersh]

To my ears this is mostly in 6/8, with fermatas at the end of each phrase and an extra beat (a beat being three eighth notes) in the last phrase. Others may disagree...

 

And my 11-year-old daughter the trumpet player, looking over my shoulder, says, "She has a good singing voice! That sounds nice!" I agree.

 

Daniel

 

Could you make us a recording of an example, Wendy? I'm inclined to agree with Boney-

...if it's in 5/4, then it should be easy to notate in 5/4. If there are a lot of ties across bars, it's probably not in 5/4.

 

I arrange lots of music for my women's chorus, and many's the time I write and rewrite, trying to get the meter straight. The only traditional music that I know of that's frequently 5/4 is Balkan!

 

Hm, and I do like what I've heard of Balkan music...maybe that's why.

 

Anyway, I've yet to get a listen to the examples mentioned in this thread. But, I did make a recording of one of my 'what-time-is-it' tunes. It's very short...really, I wrote an 'imaging' poem after reading something about the practice of imaging (meditate/heal yourself, etc.), and then the tune followed. My original words were not what I finally settled on for a lyric.

 

On March 11th, I wrote my tune out in 3/4 and put it in the Tune-O-Tron -- it's record number 868 and is called Silken Sand. My Tunebook is linked in my sig -- the tune is at the end of my tunebook.

 

Anyway, I'll try to attach a copy of an MP3 of singing with concertina, but since I did change the original words a bit, I don't even think I'm getting the same meter that I originally did. I guess I accomodate the words, when I have them -- I don't like to squish words into strict time slots!

 

There's no way that this is sensibly any 5/4 meter, at least not when it comes to writing out notation. But, still, when I count out in 5/4 while listening to it, it does actually begin and end pretty well in that. Meh. 3/4 is okay for the record, I guess!

 

There's a pic, too, that has the poem on it...I'll try to attach that too.

Edited March 20, 2006 by Daniel Hersh

[David Barnert]

To my ears this is mostly in 6/8, with fermatas at the end of each phrases and an extra beat (a beat being three eighth notes) in the last phrase. Others may disagree...

 

I hear it as 9/8, with occasional duples at the ends of measures (to provide duple-length eighth note upbeats).

 

In this illustration, each group in parentheses is the same length beat:

 

(123) (123) (123) | (123) (123) (12)| (123) (123) (123) | (123) (123) (12) |...

 

In Wendy's sound file, this pattern is only broken by the existence of an extra beat ("where love is") in the next-to-last measure.

 

I don't hear anything that suggests a 5-beat pattern.

 

And my 11-year-old daughter the trumpet player, looking over my shoulder, says, "She has a good singing voice! That sounds nice!" I agree.

 

Daniel

We knew that...

 

[edited for typo]

[edited again to change "why love is" to "where love is"]

Edited March 20, 2006 by David Barnert

[bellowbelle]

....................................And my 11-year-old daughter the trumpet player, looking over my shoulder, says, "She has a good singing voice! That sounds nice!" I agree. .............................................

 

Aww, gee, thanks! I have taken a few voice lessons here and there over the years, but of course the most important one is simply to not be afraid to make some noise (trumpet players know that, I guess) and to just give it your best. I struggle sometimes just to do basic singing, but, I love to sing and it's a great workout in all respects.

 

 

Thanks for your input on the timing for my tune, both to Daniel and to David!! I am printing out those posts for myself.

 

I can see how either would work. The idea of 6/8 timing did come to mind, though I never once thought of 9/8, which certainly I can hear, now.

 

Um, fortunately (...for me, heheh ), the Tune-O-Tron won't seem to allow me to mix time signatures or do anything extremely complex or compound, so....I have an alibi for sticking with notation that's in standard, typical, easy meters! And yay for audio recordings, because that's going to be the only way I can accurately indicate my intended meters or timings, I think.

[David Barnert]

Um, fortunately (...for me, heheh ), the Tune-O-Tron won't seem to allow me to mix time signatures or do anything extremely complex or compound, so....I have an alibi for sticking with notation that's in standard, typical, easy meters!

Sorry to ruin your alibi, Wendy, but try this. I had no trouble getting the tune-o-tron abc converter to display it (and play it) correctly.

X:1
T:Silken Sand
C:Wendy Stanford
M:9/8
K:C
(2zg|g>ed c>Ac A>cd|e6-(2eg|g>ea geg g>fe|d6-(2de|
 d2 e f>ed A>cd|e6-(2eg|\
M:12/8
						g>ed c>Ac A>cd e>cA|\
M:9/8
											c6|]
W:
W: My fingers and toes in the warm silken sand,
W: The sun on my face, I am blissful and tanned;
W: My heart now heals, pain no more shall I feel.
W: My beach, out-of-reach from all harm, this is where love is real.

[David Barnert]

Aha! [he shouts, slapping himself on the forehead.]

 

How could I have doubted you, Wendy?

 

The lady asked for 5/4, and we gave her everything but. Now that I've rolled the tune around in my mouth for a while and seen it on my computer screen and heard it a few times, the following seems obvious:

X:2
T:Silken Sand
C:Wendy Stanford
M:5/4
K:C
g|  (3g>ed (3c>Ac (3A>cd e3g|(3g>ea (3geg  (3g>fe d3e|
(3:2:2d2e  (3f>ed (3A>cd e3g|\
M:6/4
						 (3g>ed (3c>Ac (3A>cd (3e>cA c3|]
W:
W: My fingers and toes in the warm silken sand,
W: The sun on my face, I am blissful and tanned;
W: My heart now heals, pain no more shall I feel.
W: My beach, out-of-reach from all harm, this is where love is real.

Wendy, is this what you had in mind?

 

BTW, Wendy, the words are really growing on me.

[Animaterra]

I don't know, David; I still hear the song as 6/8, with an almost sean nos (An Irish style of singing) lilt to it, with a fermata-ish hold at the ends of phrases.

 

Having said that, kudos to David for taking the time to work this out- it definitely works in the 5/4 notation as well, at least as I hear it.

 

And Wendy, congratulations to you for making such a sweet song that has made such an impression to all of us!

[Dazbo]

There are, I believe, a fair number of English traditional songs in 5/4 (or least notated that way by the collectors). The only one I can think of off the top of my head is one of my favourites: 'Searching for Lambs'. I've heard (although I've no evidence to back it up) that the rythms and phrasing of the English language can fall quite easily into a 5/4 time signature.

 

Dave Brubeck's 'Take Five' must be traditional by now and that's in 5/4.

[Theodore Kloba]

For some reason, lately when I invent a new little tune or song (with our without lyrics, but usually with) it seems to want to be in 5/4 time.

Maybe what I'm doing is actually all the usual 3/4 and 4/4, but I'm adding a lot of ...um, what is that called....'holds' or whatever. (There's a word...can't think of it, now!)

If it's not meant to be a dance tune or played in a group, I wouldn't worry about it. Let the notation be descriptive, not prescriptive!

 

If you'd like to hear something unequivocally 5/4, how about "Ataeina bernu pulkas":ataeina_exc.mp3

This is what the guys playing (Sutaras) look like:

The 2nd movement of Tschaikowski's 6th symphony is a very waltz-like movement in 5/4.

How about "Mars: The Bringer of War" from Gustav Holst's The Planets Suite? Not waltz-like, but march-like.