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Size Isn't All That Matters...


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...deluding yourself.
A thrilling thought :-)

Interesting that you should feel that way about it. ;)

 

Imagine the frightening possibility that I know better than you JT.....:-)

"Frightening"? No, no! That is the thrilling thought... that you might know more, yet be so good at hiding the fact. I would applaud that.

 

Innovations are met with scepticism entirely due to conservatism, ignorance, indolence or lacking imagination.

........[...]

...the establishment is *always* wrong in the beginning...

Interesting opinions, against which history is full of counterexamples. You delude yourself.

 

In fact, if your last statement were true, then any innovation would automatically become wrong the instant a new "innovation" was proposed against it... or should that be as soon as it was accepted by the establishment?

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Jim:"I am unable to play a high-G tin whistle, because the spacing of the holes is too small -- or my fingers too broad -- for me to cover each hole with a separate finger. The whistle may be "unsuitable" or "inappropriate" for me, but it is hardly "defective"."

 

Goran:The discussion evidently has crossed over to the field of absurd comics.....time to start a new topic Jim?...:-)

The above seems to mean that JL is "unfit" "unsuitable" or "inappropriate" for the 'high-G tin whistle'....have your choice...

 

Assuming that this whistle is designed for 'normal' 'ordinary' 'common' users where do we go from here? I don't know how small it actually is...is it regarded as a toy instrument for children....?

 

Goran

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You started this topic yourself and you use to advocate for being true to the topic aim in messages. ... Time to tidy up or finding ways to proceed....?

Göran, what I think and how I proceed are my decisions, and not dependent on what you think I intended or should intend. Similarly, what you think and how you proceed are your decisions.

 

If you think this discussion -- or a particular aspect of it -- should continue under a different Topic or even in a different Forum, you're free to continue it there. If you wish others to join you, you might want to post a notice here about the change of venue.

Edited by JimLucas
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I am unable to play a high-G tin whistle, because the spacing of the holes is too small -- or my fingers too broad -- for me to cover each hole with a separate finger. The whistle may be "unsuitable" or "inappropriate" for me, but it is hardly "defective"."

The above seems to mean that JL is "unfit" "unsuitable" or "inappropriate" for the 'high-G tin whistle'....

Quite so. It and I are not suited to each other.

 

Assuming that this whistle is designed for 'normal' 'ordinary' 'common' users where do we go from here?

Nowhere in particular. Anything we say about it is unlikely to affect either its production or its use. It is a standard product, though not widely used. The D whistle is the one most commonly used.

 

Also, the assumption is not necessarily correct. The whistle was probably not designed specifically "for 'normal', 'ordinary', or 'common' users", but to play a major diatonic scale in the key of G, in the same way that other standard whistles play in other keys. For those who use it, this whistle is perfectly functional, so it is not defective; for those who either don't wish to or can't use it, it is unsuitable.

 

I don't know how small it actually is...

18-19 cm in length from the edge of the wedge in the mouthpiece to the open end of the whistle.

 

...is it regarded as a toy instrument for children....?

Not at all. It's a serious instrument, played mainly by serious musicians, the dilletantes confining themselves mainly to the D and C whistles.

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Jim:"Not at all. It's a serious instrument, played mainly by serious musicians, the dilletantes confining themselves mainly to the D and C whistles. "

 

Goran:I assume then that there could exist "serious musicians" who might like to use it if they could (i.e 'were fit for it') ...?

Considering the mathematical conditions for flute design maybe the individual 'fitness' for this instrument is hard to fix in case the hole measures and spacing is not compatible with certain finger. anatomy..?

If so...would that not resemble some of the said conflicts with concertina buttons and keyboards?...just the difference being that with concertinas there actually are no obstacles to "fix" the problem...accepting the consequences on the way?

You are supposed to meet needs for compromising whatever is done...

 

Back to what I have said many times before...should the instrument design be aimed for a 'selected elite' or for a 'common population' of potential users?

There are different answers to that of course...but it could be wise to at least put the question before making,selling,or buying - the product.

 

Goran Rahm

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So, if you find the perfect spacing for you for a six-hole whistle, you then build a set of whistles that use that spacing, with keys/levers, to fit different scale lengths. This, of course, increases the price of the whistle. So we are back to an expensive instrument that is perfect for the one person as opposed to an instrument which is cheap but only suited to some people.

 

How about someone making large size button heads that could be fitted over the top of or stuck onto the top of smaller sized buttons? All you have to worry about then is the centre to centre spacing.

 

Robin

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How about someone making large size button heads that could be fitted over the top of or stuck onto the top of smaller sized buttons? All you have to worry about then is the centre to centre spacing.

1) Not quite all. Such an accessory would also add height to the button. How much that matters may differ from individual to individual.

 

2) Seems a reasonable idea, but I would expect the person who makes such "caps" to be someone who thinks they would be an improvement.

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How about someone making large size button heads that could be fitted over the top of or stuck onto the top of smaller sized buttons? All you have to worry about then is the centre to centre spacing.

Robin

 

Goran:The idea is good but practise has some obstacles:

1)The common construction with the complete endplate guiding the buttons makes it very unpractical.

This problem could easily be eliminated by a modification which would be handy anyway: having a separately fixated central plate guiding the buttons and the rest of the endplate holding the other pieces together by the usual endbolts. Then you could use the traditional construction but having wider button heads on leaner stems and the heads pressed on, screwed on or fixated by a screw or other solutions - and still access to other parts including the valves.

 

2) If accepting the above problems...Just fitting heads onto the tops of the buttons needs a shallow head to allow enough button travel and not so easy to arrange. I did it once for a test (7mm wide heads on an English), it worked fairly fine but first occasion taking them off never brought them back again .

I have however modified buttons quite a few times putting 6mm removable heads (12mm long) on the original 5mm buttons and taking the bushings away. This works really well.

 

Goran Rahm

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Goran:Arguing instead of presenting arguments Jonathan. Of course "smaller buttons can be arranged closer together"...and of course that means trouble for players with wide fingers (which you dont want to accept..)

 

"Arguing instead of presenting arguments"? Yes, I know that's what you are doing, Goran; you do it quite often. Either you are misquoting me deliberately, or you haven't bothered to read my statement properly, which was:

 

Smaller buttons can be arranged closer together, allowing a smaller keyboard for a given range (good for players with shorter fingers), while at the same time the interspaces can remain large enough to prevent adjacent buttons being snagged inadvertently (good for not so slender fingers).

 

Is there something in this statement that you do not understand? If so, say what it is. If you understand it, then either disprove it, or accept that it is true and shut up.

 

Goran:Well...good to know that JT knows better than the constructor what he intended...:-)

 

Are you being deliberately stupid or are you just pretending? In how many different ways do I have to say it? IT IS IRRELEVANT WHAT WHEATSTONE INTENDED. Now for the second time: DISPROVE MY STATEMENT OR ACCEPT IT.

 

Goran: For everyone who can not use it efficiently it certainly is "defective" whatever JT says.....

 

We already know that you start to argue semantics when you find yourself in a corner, so what precisely do you mean by "defective" this week?

 

Goran:Gosh....YOU present "evidence" and *I* "subjective impressions"...

*I* know ýou are not joking but nevertheless it is a joke....

 

No, I am not joking, Goran. You present your own subjective experiences as "facts" to try to bolster your own theories, and dismiss the experiences of better players than yourself.

 

Goran: A thrilling thought :-) Imagine the frightening possibility that I know better than you JT.....:-)

 

If you wish to enter the realms of fantasy, Goran, go ahead. Just remember that when Henk van Aalten asked for an explanation why concertina buttons are so small, YOU couldn't provide one. I did.

 

Goran now:Complete nonsense. Innovations are met with scepticism entirely due to conservatism, ignorance, indolence or lacking imagination.
Goran now:Temporarily back to senses for sure but your own scepticism often is based on imagination and that is different...

 

So is imagination good or bad? Make your mind up.

 

Jonathan:That is precisely my opinion of your ideas -- until I get hard evidence that they work.

Goran:*precisely*...:-)....so just go ahead and find out for yourself or stop arguing without *evidence* . Do you use an electric shaver because there was a scientific report that it works or because you found out 'subjectively'...?

 

Neither. I use one (a beard trimmer, actually) because I was provided with evidence (visible in the form of other men's well-trimmed beards) that it works. Now, when will I be provided with evidence that your ideas work? (not ever, it now appears, judging by your inability to provide scale drawings).

Also, since you do not appear to be aware of scientific methods, let me inform you of the "Burden of Proof" principle: YOU are making the claim, so YOU provide the evidence. It is NOT up to me to "find out for myself".

 

Goran:No...but the establishment is *always* wrong in the beginning and the rebel is *sometimes* right.....:-) (speaking about 'true' novelties of course...like the planet movements....:-)

 

If we haven't got any evidence, how do we know that we are speaking about a "true novelty"?

 

Jonathan Taylor

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Jonathan:"...you haven't bothered to read my statement properly, which was:

 

QUOTE (Jonathan Taylor @ Dec 16 2003, 03:20 AM)

Smaller buttons can be arranged closer together, allowing a smaller keyboard for a given range (good for players with shorter fingers), while at the same time the interspaces can remain large enough to prevent adjacent buttons being snagged inadvertently (good for not so slender fingers).

 

...Is there something in this statement that you do not understand? If so, say what it is. If you understand it, then either disprove it, or accept that it is true and shut up."

 

Goran:Gosh..you are persistent Jonathan! YES! I understand what you are saying ...but you seem not to yourself...:-)

If the (traditional) measures are "good for not so slender fingers" those said fingers are "fit" for the situation. WHAT ABOUT *those other* fingers (which are NOT that slender...being those firstly worth to disuss here...) which do not fit!!?? *They* 'require' wider spaces, do they not?? The slender fingers will manage anyway with the common spacing, but the thick fingers will not manage at all!!...consequently *for this reason* it would be more purposeful having wider spacing since they would (at least) be 'manageable' for all....

 

Jonathan:"Are you being deliberately stupid or are you just pretending? In how many different ways do I have to say it? IT IS IRRELEVANT WHAT WHEATSTONE INTENDED. Now for the second time: DISPROVE MY STATEMENT OR ACCEPT IT."

 

Goran:I don't care to ..the above just makes me giggle....

 

QUOTE

Goran: For everyone who can not use it efficiently it certainly is "defective" whatever JT says.....

 

Jonathan:"We already know that you start to argue semantics when you find yourself in a corner, so what precisely do you mean by "defective" this week?"

 

Goran:Giggle again:-)...no JT...you (and JL) use to be the carriers of the semantic banners not I ...but if you like (not to make you happier just to stop nagging) I willingly replace my expression "defective" in this case with *unfit* or *unsuitable* which has been suggested elsewhere by JL...(the meaning probably was understood by others anyway....)

 

Jonathan:"No, I am not joking, Goran. You present your own subjective experiences as "facts" to try to bolster your own theories, and dismiss the experiences of better players than yourself."

 

Goran:I have never questioned your judgement of your own playing Jonathan and I absolutely confirm I am merely a lousy dilettante player myself....but your arguments....!?

 

QUOTE (goran rahm @ Jan 6 2004, 05:18 AM)

Goran now:Temporarily back to senses for sure but your own scepticism often is based on imagination and that is different...

 

Jonathan:"So is imagination good or bad? Make your mind up."

 

Goran:I have...scepticism based on imagination is part of what I call 'prejudice' ....

....and "bad" as I see it...

 

QUOTE

Jonathan:That is precisely my opinion of your ideas -- until I get hard evidence that they work.

Goran:*precisely*...:-)....so just go ahead and find out for yourself or stop arguing without *evidence* . Do you use an electric shaver because there was a scientific report that it works or because you found out 'subjectively'...?

 

Jonathan:Neither. I use one (a beard trimmer, actually) because I was provided with evidence (visible in the form of other men's well-trimmed beards) that it works."

 

Goran:Clever enough....what convinced you? Their appearance or your own experience??

 

Jonathan: Now, when will I be provided with evidence that your ideas work? (not ever, it now appears, judging by your inability to provide scale drawings).

 

Goran:You really believe that "scale drawings" would be evidence you seek 'that it works'......:-)????

 

Jonathan:Also, since you do not appear to be aware of scientific methods, let me inform you of the "Burden of Proof" principle: YOU are making the claim, so YOU provide the evidence. It is NOT up to me to "find out for myself".

 

Goran:1) I have never claimed being "scientific" .... 2) what "claim" are you talking about? 3) whatever "claim" it could be.... your possible conviction will remain YOUR OWN business JT....

 

QUOTE

Goran:No...but the establishment is *always* wrong in the beginning and the rebel is *sometimes* right.....:-) (speaking about 'true' novelties of course...like the planet movements....:-)

 

Jonathan:If we haven't got any evidence, how do we know that we are speaking about a "true novelty"?

 

Goran: I thought we had finished the matter of planet movements....BTW,in fact in those cases the "rebel" is *always right*....:-)

 

Goran Rahm

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If the (traditional) measures are "good for not so slender fingers" those said fingers are "fit" for the situation. WHAT ABOUT *those other* fingers (which are NOT that slender...being those firstly worth to disuss here...) which do not fit!!?? *They* 'require' wider spaces, do they not?? The slender fingers will manage anyway with the common spacing, but the thick fingers will not manage at all!!...consequently *for this reason* it would be more purposeful having wider spacing since they would (at least) be 'manageable' for all....

Goran, first you ignore (on Jan 6) the second part of my original 99-word statement, now you ignore the first part. I have already answered this:

If the buttons are spaced wider to compensate for this, the keyboard will become too wide and long for players with short fingers to reach all the buttons easily.

Making the buttons and keyboard better for thick-fingered people would also make them worse for short-fingered people. How many more times do I have to repeat myself?

Goran:Giggle again:-)...no JT...you (and JL) use to be the carriers of the semantic banners not I ...but if you like (not to make you happier just to stop nagging) I willingly replace my expression "defective" in this case with *unfit* or *unsuitable* which has been suggested elsewhere by JL...(the meaning probably was understood by others anyway....)

Wrong. When the word "defective" is used, English speakers tend to understand it to mean "defective" and not "unsuitable". It was you who started arguing about the meaning, NOT Jim.

Goran:I have never questioned your judgement of your own playing Jonathan and I absolutely confirm I am merely a lousy dilettante player myself....but your arguments....!?

So if you are a "lousy dilettante player", as you put it, what gives you the idea that you are competent to give people advice on this forum about holding and playing the concertina?

Jonathan:"So is imagination good or bad? Make your mind up."

 

Goran:I have...scepticism based on imagination is part of what I call 'prejudice' ........and "bad" as I see it...

Scepticism is NOT prejudging; it is withholding judgement until proof is forthcoming. And you didn't answer my question.

Jonathan:Neither. I use one (a beard trimmer, actually) because I was provided with evidence (visible in the form of other men's well-trimmed beards) that it works."

Goran:Clever enough....what convinced you? Their appearance or your own experience??

You already know my answer. It's in the sentence above your question, in the same quote.

Goran:You really believe that "scale drawings" would be evidence you seek 'that it works'......:-)????

No. Evidence would be a finished instrument with your modifications, equal or better in musical capabilities as a traditional instrument. But without scale drawings, nobody can build one.

Goran:1) I have never claimed being "scientific" .... 2) what "claim" are you talking about? 3) whatever "claim" it could be.... your possible conviction will remain YOUR OWN business JT....

1) That explains a lot. But is ergonomy not a science, then?

2) Presumably whatever you were referring to when you said:

Goran:*precisely*...:-)....so just go ahead and find out for yourself or stop arguing without *evidence*

Presumably your ideas.

3) So what?

Goran: I thought we had finished the matter of planet movements.... BTW,in fact in those cases the "rebel" is *always right*....:-)

Wrong. It was just the rebels who were right who ended up in the history books. The ones who were wrong were simply disregarded and forgotten.

 

To summarize: after I presented an explanation of concertina keyboard and button sizes (and you didn't), you attempted 4 (four) times to discredit my explanation, and me personally, with yet another flood of irrelevant verbiage. And you have still not disproved it.

 

I won't be answering any further replies of yours in this topic.

 

Jonathan Taylor

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Goran: I thought we had finished the matter of planet movements.... BTW,in fact in those cases the "rebel" is *always right*....:-)

Wrong. It was just the rebels who were right who ended up in the history books. The ones who were wrong were simply disregarded and forgotten.

Even that "rule" has an exception:

......The woman who claimed "turtles all the way down" has become quite a historical -- even legendary -- figure, even though no one knows her name. :)

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Firstly I hope noone cares to read this fruitless arguing than Jonathan...

 

I just pick a couple of isses this time...

 

JT:"So if you are a "lousy dilettante player", as you put it, what gives you the idea that you are competent to give people advice on this forum about holding and playing the concertina?"

 

Goran:JT, you seemingly have not been noticing/understanding that I don't "give advice" except in very few exceptions and not regarding what you probably assume....I have presented suggestions for modifications of the instrument(s) which has been discussed here...and that is something entirely different.

You yourself however have been *giving advice" quite a few times...

If you don't understand the difference ask someone else to explain it to you...

 

QUOTE (goran rahm @ Jan 12 2004, 04:11 AM)

Jonathan:Neither. I use one (a beard trimmer, actually) because I was provided with evidence (visible in the form of other men's well-trimmed beards) that it works."

Goran:Clever enough....what convinced you? Their appearance or your own experience??

 

JT:"You already know my answer. It's in the sentence above your question, in the same quote."

 

Goran:So ...you valued their good looks more than your own experience??? :-)

 

QUOTE (goran rahm @ Jan 12 2004, 04:11 AM)

Goran:You really believe that "scale drawings" would be evidence you seek 'that it works'......:-)????

 

JT:"No."

 

Goran:A nonsense comment then...

 

QUOTE (goran rahm @ Jan 12 2004, 04:11 AM)

Goran:1) I have never claimed being "scientific" .... 2) what "claim" are you talking about? 3) whatever "claim" it could be.... your possible conviction will remain YOUR OWN business JT....

 

JT:1) That explains a lot. But is ergonomy not a science, then?

 

Goran:Certainly...but this forum is not scientific, there is no scientific 'evaluation' of the modifications I have suggested (naturally..and I have not pretended there is) and this discussion is definitely not scientific....

 

JT:2) Presumably whatever you were referring to when you said:

 

QUOTE (goran rahm @ Jan 6 2004, 05:18 AM)

Goran:*precisely*...:-)....so just go ahead and find out for yourself or stop arguing without *evidence*

 

Goran: I bet that comment doesn't make sense to anyone...

 

JT:3) So what?

 

Goran:Right....so give up your endless futile objections regarding things you will never bother to learn more about JT !!

 

JT:I won't be answering any further replies of yours in this topic.

 

Goran: I take that as a promise!

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Goran:JT, you seemingly have not been noticing/understanding that I don't "give advice"

Goran, I've been sitting here on the sidelines forcing my self to keep out of it, but you've gone too far now.

 

Dear God, man, if you're not "giving advice", then what the bloody Hell are you doing? No one can discuss ergonomics, physiology or technique without being treated to a lengthy argument about your ideas for redesigning the instrument!

 

If you think your ideas are so wonderful, put up the money and have someone build an instrument of your design. Is it only coincidence that you've never posted a photograph of the handles and straps which you claim to have made -- only rought sketches? Are these "improvements" of yours nothing but what we in the IT business call "vaporware"?

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Is it  only coincidence that you've never posted a photograph of the handles and straps which you claim to have made -- only rough sketches? Are these "improvements" of yours nothing but what we in the IT business call "vaporware"?

I don't know about the other "improvements" Göran advocates, but I have seen -- and tried -- instruments of his with his special handles.

 

I personally found his handles for the English not to be an improvement.

My anglo experience at the time was too limited for me to properly judge his anglo handles.

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