Would You Want To Be A Professional ?

[Alan Day]

The ultimate aim of many of us when we start is to possibly be so good as to turn professional and play the concertina for a living.Thank goodness I did not succeed.

I am now older and wiser to be semi professional is another matter,to enjoy ones playing and then get payed for it is fantastic,to rely on playing for a living must be a very hard life.When I first went on the road as a Rep the first two weeks were fantastic the freedom, the interesting places to visit,hotels,free meals,freedom to go where I wanted Etc.It soon quickly wore off ,hotels became boring,the lonely existance,the nights away from home and family.I managed to coincide my visits with Folk clubs in the area and almost became part of the circuit, but I always left my room light on so it would be a welcome when I got back to the Hotel.One night getting back late from a Folk club the Hotel was locked up and the key they gave me would not fit the lock, so I had to spend the night in the car. I saw many professional musicians in my travels and befriended some of them and the most confident on stage were the ones most terrified back stage.One was practicing in a corner of the dressing room with his face to the wall and practiced until he went on stage.Each performance is only good as the last and hit a bad run and you have no money coming in.

"Do you want to turn professional Alan"? No thank you very much I am happy as I am !

Al

[Sharron]

I would not want to take the *fun* out of playing music by wanting to do it professionally.......some chance anyway

If I take anything too seriously, errm well then the fun is ..whoosh...gone.

A couple of little bits now and again is fine because it is just that, but to do it for a living, well I admire people who can and still enjoy doing it too.

Me....nope...I need it to be fun without the extra pressure it would bring.

 

Sharron

[Robert Booth]

Never in life! For me the thrill is to be able to pick up an instrument and be able to realize the tune in my head right then and there. Taking a musical idea and making a pretty good go at it is usually enough to satisfy me.

There are times when the music I "hear" needs more than one instrument; that's when I go and play with others.

Professional playing would quickly become a pain in the a*se, tho.

Sort of like taking the juice out of a really good book by having to write a graded report on it. No fun!

[Mark Evans]

It's a wonderful thing to dream of being a "professional" when you are young. The reality can be another matter.

 

I "came off the road" got a real job, weekly paycheck no less, and have a life with gardening, koi pond, a bulldog and a relationship with my children! The most unexpected plus is that the fun of music making is back.

 

My wife Dominique Labelle is still on the road and her stress level can at times get high, but it is what she feels completes her. She and the Sarasa Ensemble gave a wonderful concert at my college Friday evening. I stood in wonder of this person I live with. There is a side of her that only lives "on the stage" and it was magic to see and hear. I had forgotten that other person is within her...ooh, la, la!

 

Of course when a presentor does not pay or holds up the check in some cases 60 plus days...well, not fun.

[Stephen Chambers]

My wife Dominique Labelle is still on the road ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

And I see that she was performing near here last year, in the Shannon International Music Festival, 21-25 July 2004. I must go and hear her if she is ever back this way.

 

Now I understand your fondness for red hair ...

[Mark Evans]

Yes! She enjoyed her first visit to Ireland. I understand there are plans for her return, 06' I think.

 

Red hair....um.

[JimLucas]

"Do you want to turn professional Alan"? No thank you very much I am happy as I am !

Al 

There are many ways to be professional. Risky road tours are only one of them. Teaching is another. Some musicians develop a regular gig at a local cafe or other venue (I've known at least one concertina player who did that); some get paid for "running" a session. And these days many touring performers make more from selling their CD's on tour than what they're paid directly for the gigs. If you can do some of each of these, you can still be a professional, and maybe not become weary of touring occasionally.

 

Also, if you get paid well, you don't have to work so hard. I don't think any of the well-known professional touring groups tour 12 months of the year. But if you "can't afford" to turn down low-paying or otherwise abusive gigs, then you're in the wrong profession.

[Jim Besser]

Well, let's see: a professional Morris musician? Guaranteed economic ruin (the ledgers would be divided into two columns: income and beer. Guess which would come out ahead?)

 

A contra dance professional? Guaranteed poverty.

 

I've played a lot of gigs as a pathetically amateur professional (or maybe a professional amateur), and I've noticed that the higher the pay, the greater the stress and the lower the enjoyment. I think this is a not-so-subtle message that being a professional would not be a good idea for me, assuming, of course, that I had the talent, which is highly doubtful.

 

The other aspect is the competitivenss of music as a business. Playing music casually is a great social thing, with a fine sense of camaraderie.

 

The people I know who try to do it for a living don't have time for that nonesense; they're too busy competing with each other for scarce jobs. At least in my neck of the woods, there's an unattractive cutthroat element that is absent for amateurs.

 

It would be interesting to know how many concertina players actually make a living at it. Maybe five, worldwide?

Edited January 26, 2005 by Jim Besser

[bellowbelle]

Well, this is a really tough question. I thought of answering, "I won't answer," but, then, that's an answer. Hmm. Dilemma.

 

My first inclination is to say, 'No. I would not like to be a professional.'

 

But, that's not to say that I don't wish to acquire all the skill that a professional concertina player would have.

 

I guess, I want my parakeets and cats and dogs to consider me professional. (The cats seem to, already -- that's why I make the concertina cover things -- they storm the stage when I play.) I'm not as good as my parakeets, yet -- I make mistakes, they don't -- but, we're working on it. Seriously, I am just too much of a hermitess, but I prefer it that way. Trees and birds and one weird lady with her concertina, that's about as pro as I'll get around here, I guess.

 

I enjoy listening to composers of all types. I tend to collect and group songs by composer -- a few from this one, a few from that. (Mostly dead guys, but, it's not a requirement... )

 

 

Mark Evans Posted Today, 04:35 PM

...My wife Dominique Labelle is ....

 

Well, Mark, I hope I get the opportunity to hear your wife sing sometime! That would be fun.

 

I'm just a 'bellowbelle,' as in a 'belle of the bellows' (and, hardly that, but, whatever...) and I've always enjoyed singing. At one time, many years ago, I did start to think seriously of singing, but, then I got too tired, anyway, and it all was just too impossible.

 

Anyway...I keep getting interrupted while trying to type this and it's taking me just about an hour to get this note posted....done, now!

[Mark Evans]

Trees and birds and one weird lady with her concertina,

 

Beautiful Wendy. Truely.

 

Dominique has seen images of your concertina cover and thinks it a work of art. I would like for you to hear her sing. It takes my breath away I'll tell you.

 

What is "professional"? How does it change ones thinking about making music? Depends on the individual I guess. What I have listened to on the recording links page is lovingly crafted and honestly presented for all to listen to. A professional standard of care and pride is there and an admirable risking of self.

 

I sing my songs, play my Tina, thump on my banjo for myself and as a gift to anyone who cares to listen...feels honest. Trying to be a "professional" made me severely unhappy (my fault, not the professions). Stopping, and taking music back to what felt good inside saved music in my life.

 

Dominique told me after my 50th Birthday Bluegrass Bash that when I sing that music it's like I am 21 years old again...the look in her eyes worked for me!

[JimLucas]

I'm not as good as my parakeets, yet -- I make mistakes, they don't...

Are you sure they don't?

They may just be more "professional", in not telling you when they make mistakes.

 

My university choral director taught me many useful things about pleasing an audience. One of them was to never "tell" the audience when you've made a mistake, because it's rare that anyone willt be aware of it. No stopping, no facial expressions, and furthermore not even mentioning a mistake to other members of the group until the next day... to make sure you're far enough from the audience that none will overhear. I.e., if they think you're great, don't tell them otherwise.

 

Edited to add: Regardless of the profession, if you don't think you're good enough, then in a sense, you're not. I've known people who make their living selling their crafts at festivals and fairs, who would be apalled at the thought of selling their music the same way. And I've known professional musicans who enjoy and are proud of the profession, who would be horrified at the thought of selling their excellent needlework, jams & cakes, drawings, etc.

 

But being a professional musician isn't just about musical competence. I think I might be a good enough performer to be a professional, but until I get the management side -- advertising, booking, etc. -- under control, it ain't gonna work.

Edited January 26, 2005 by JimLucas

[bigsqueezergeezer]

I am now older and wiser to be semi professional is another matter,to enjoy ones playing and then get payed for it is fantastic,

 

 

This bit is the right balance for me. At festivals you can enjoy performing and sometimes almost make your beer money for the weekend!

 

Althought I have to admit no one pays me for my playing, but rather my (only average) singing.

[JimLucas]

Well, let's see: a professional Morris musician?  Guaranteed economic ruin (the ledgers would be divided into two columns: income and beer. Guess which would come out ahead?)

Well, of course. Income comes in, not out. Beer, on the other hand... did you mention "a head"?

 

A contra dance professional? Guaranteed poverty.

For you, perhaps, but not for everyone.

 

I've played a lot of gigs as a pathetically amateur professional (or maybe a professional amateur), and I've noticed that the higher the pay, the greater the stress and the lower the enjoyment.

My own experience is just the opposite. Those who pay well also show respect in other ways. Those who want to hire you on the cheap will show disrespect in other ways, as well. Also, if you get paid well, you don't have to do as many gigs, which should reduce various kinds of stress. Getting paid $50-100 per gig is very different from getting paid $500-1000 or more per.

 

I think this is a not-so-subtle message that being a professional would not be a good idea for me,....

For you, yes. A reasonable conclusion.

 

The other aspect is the competitivenss of music as a business.  Playing music casually is a great social thing, with a fine sense of camaraderie.

 

The people I know who try to do it for a living don't have time for that nonesense; they're too busy competing with each other for scarce jobs.  At least in my neck of the woods, there's an unattractive cutthroat element that is absent for  amateurs.

Interesting... and sad. I know some people are like that, but most of the "professional" folk performers and contradance musicians I know are quite the opposite. They cooperate. They recommend each other and help each other to get gigs. Many of them are members of more than one group, forming up in different combinations. That makes cutthroat competition difficult. (Do you cut your own throat because you're competing with yourself?) And their own sense of cooperation and camraderie isn't limited to their professional colleagues, but extends to non-professionals and even strangers who enjoy the music. Just back from a "tiring" tour, they may well show up at a Sacred Harp sing or a pub session, because they enjoy the music.

 

But they aren't struggling. They are comfortable with their profession, and they do it full time. Nor are they fighting to find time for it in and around a "real" job.

 

It would be interesting to know how many concertina players actually make a living at it.  Maybe five, worldwide?

While I'm sure there are far more professional violinists than concertina players, your estimate is way too low. Of course, the number drops if you exclude professional musicians who do more with music than than just play concertina. Alistair Anderson, e.g., also plays Northumbrian small pipes, and these days is much more involved in music education than performing tours. John Kirkpatrick also plays melodeon (British definition). John Roberts sings, and plays guitar and banjo, in addition to both English and anglo. And what about the Irish (including Irish-American) who play both concertina and button accordion?

 

There are quite a few concertina players that I don't know whether they have "day jobs" or not. How many of those with "professional" recordings make their living entirely from music? Noel Hil? Niall Vallely? Mary McNamara? Billy McComiskey? Dave Townsend? Harry Scurfield? Pietro Valente? John Nixon? Chris Sherburn? John Williams? That list is only a beginning.

 

And as I said before, there's more than one way to do it. I know that "Concertino" (Erwin Pruss) -- clown, juggler, and concertina player -- makes his living as a travelling street busker. But then, he prefers that life.

[Guest]

Jim wrote: My own experience is just the opposite. Those who pay well also show respect in other ways.

 

I agree completely. I made my living as a musician for five years in the late 1990s (as a harp player, teaching, performing and publishing), and it's a tough way to do it. If I had a dollar for every time someone said to me "oh I can't afford to pay you but it would be exposure!" (No thanks, you can die from too much exposure! )

 

And I did find that after a while playing music was a lot less fun, because it was also "work".

 

Then there were the other downsides; people assuming that you could somehow born with the magical ability to play (no long hours of practice required), constantly having to watch the harp so it didn't get knocked over or malled by a drunken wedding guest with greasy fingers etc etc etc. And that inevitable comment "Oh... you don't look like a harp player." (What does a harp player look like, I ask you? )

 

But every now and then you get a great gig when you are really appreciated, or you see the face of your student the very first time they learn a song. There are definitely good moment too.

 

And I have definitely rambled on too long

 

Cheers

Morgana

[Alan Day]

Morgana a Harp player has lots of vertical lines down one side.

Al

[bill_mchale]

[There are quite a few concertina players that I don't know whether they have "day jobs" or not.  How many of those with "professional" recordings make their living entirely from music?  Noel Hil?  Niall Vallely?  Mary McNamara?  Billy McComiskey?  Dave Townsend?  Harry Scurfield?  Pietro Valente?  John Nixon?  Chris Sherburn?  John Williams?  That list is only a beginning.

 

Well Billy McComiskey doesn't even play concertina much anymore, in fact I don't even think he has an instrument, certainly not a high end instrument (He told me once that he didn't feel he could devote enough time at it to become truely good at it). He concentrates pretty much all his efforts on Button Accordion. However that being said, Billy does have a day job, as do most of the "professional" Irish Musicians I know (barring those who are retired). Again it was Billy who told me that he could make a living from his music if he wanted to, but he would probably have to spend all his time on the road just to make a decent living... and that aint a decent living, it leaves precious little time for family or friends. In my experience most of the full time professionals in Irish Music tend to be younger and tend to tour for maybe 5 or 10 years and then they end up settling down somewhere and getting a day job. There are obviously exceptions, but I bet there are fewer than 50 Irish musicians in the world who make their living exclusively from playing or teaching music for their entire careers.

 

--

Bill

[bill_mchale]

The ultimate aim of many of us when we start is to possibly be so good as to turn professional and play the concertina for a living.Thank goodness I did not succeed.

I am now older and wiser to be semi professional is another matter,to enjoy ones playing and then get payed for it is fantastic,to rely on playing for a living must be a very hard life.When I first went on the road as a Rep the first two weeks were fantastic the freedom, the interesting places to visit,hotels,free meals,freedom to go where I wanted Etc.It soon quickly wore off ,hotels became boring,the lonely existance,the nights away from home and family.I managed to coincide my visits with Folk clubs in the area and almost became part of the circuit, but I always left my room light on so it would be a welcome when I got back to the Hotel.One night getting back late from a Folk club the Hotel was locked up and the key they gave me would not fit the lock, so I had to spend the night in the car. I saw many professional musicians in my travels and befriended some of them and the most confident on stage were the ones most terrified back stage.One was practicing in a corner of the dressing room with his face to the wall and practiced until he went on stage.Each performance is only good as the last and hit a bad run and you have no money coming in.

"Do you want to turn professional Alan"? No thank you very much I am happy as I am !

Al 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

 

I think I could enjoy being semi-professional; I would keep my day job but get maybe a once a month gig at a local pub and maybe an occasional out of town gig. Of course if my CD sold in the millions I guess I could be presuaded to do a tour Of course I am years away from making a CD (if ever). I think the best would be to reach a level of proficency that I would be recruited to teach in the Catskills or Augusta... but then again I am also years away from that (if ever).

 

--

Bill

[JimLucas]

In my experience most of the full time professionals in Irish Music tend to be younger and tend to tour for maybe 5 or 10 years and then they end up settling down somewhere and getting a day job.

So how many non-musicians stay with the same job for that long? I haven't always been a computer programmer, but after 25 years of it -- with several different firms -- I'd really like to do something different. Maybe even become a professional musician.

 

...I bet there are fewer than 50 Irish musicians in the world who make their living exclusively from playing or teaching music for their entire careers.

Still, 50 would be 10 times Jim Besser's estimate of "maybe five, worldwide", and he only specified that they "make a living at it", not that they do so for their entire life. I wonder if the average performing lifetime of concertina players is any less or greater than that of aspiring rock musicians, singer-songwriters, or even actors.