I Want To Buy A Concertina, But I Have Questions.

[thefirstcorby]

Alright, I'm a professional dabbler. Actually a professional student, but when it comes to music I try everything. I sing, and play five or six instruments so far, chiefly violin and mandolin. My favorite genre is early and traditional music, so I like the traditional instruments. I fell in love with a friend's concertina, and then got paid, and the influx of money combined with my newfound infatuation and you probably know the rest of the story.

 

When I started playing the pennywhistle I soon found that there was one thing that drove me nuts about it- the restriction of the notes. I don't like to be confined to one or two keys, or having to skip notes to play a song on an instrument. So, when I started looking for a concertina, there were two questions foremost in my mind:

 

Is there a concertina that is not restricted? I've been having trouble deciphering the descriptions of the concertinas, so I don't trust my own research.

 

If there is one, is it a wise choice to buy it? I'm not afraid of complex fingerings or seas of buttons, but if there is a serious downside to the instrument, I'd rather not buy a clunker.

 

Any input greatly appreciated!

Edited December 28, 2005 by thefirstcorby

[Mark Evans]

There are two major systems: Anglo Concertina and English. Both are unrestricted if you are looking at an Anglo c/g with 30 buttons. It takes a bit of work but playing in any key is possible. If your intrest is traditional music (European and North American) the keys tend to be what is comfortable on the fiddle. Anglo is right there and in the case of Irish music prefered it seems.

 

English Concertina is fully cromatic and is used in many traditions and if you check out our recorded links page, it is being used to great effect even in Irish music. If possible, put your hands on both types and one will speak to you .

 

Some folks here also play duet concertrina which is fully cromatic and seems to be a marriage of elements of Anglo and English with lower notes in the left hand and higher notes in the right. Lovely sound, but certainly not as common.

 

Welcome

Edited December 28, 2005 by Mark Evans

[bill_mchale]

Well, personally, I find that how an instrument handles its limitations in large part helps define what makes that instrument special. Whistles and flutes in Irish Music are pretty much limited to two octaves (yes the flute can go to a third octave but I don't know of many tunes that go up that high) but I have heard some great settings of tunes played upon them that normally go below their range.

 

That being said, Most 30+ button Anglo Concertinas are chromatic for at least part of their range. English and Duet Concertinas are more fully chromatic. Even then though certain keys are going to be easier than others.

 

--

Bill

[jon melville]

Anglo concertina is diatonic (designed to play major scale only in specific keys, e.g. G and C) with different notes on push and draw of the bellows. Chords in the main keys very easy. 30 key anglos are fully chromatic, but require some skill to play in keys other than the designated ones. Very bouncy, ideal for english or irish folk tunes (though slow airs and waltzes can be a challenge).

 

English concertina is fully chromatic, the centre two rows of buttons on each hand are the white piano notes with the accidentals on the outer rows. Notes alternate between the hands, so all the notes on the lines of the stave are on the left and those in the gaps are on the right! Easier to play smoothly and build up chords in all keys, better in my opinion for early music and song accompaniment, less so for folk tunes. Skill is required to develop bouncy rhythms for tunes.

 

As a general rule, certainly in the UK, an inexpensive Anglo is likely to be closer to a decent standard of playability than a cheap English. Get one in G/C or D/G to accompany folk tunes and for ensemble playing.

 

The main limitations on playability tend to be the action (operation of the keys), reeds and bellows. Play one button repeatedly and if you can "beat" the instrument, you will eventually find it limiting. As a musician alreay, you will be able to tell if it is in tune and if the reeds go out of tune if a (reasonably) forceful amount of pressure is applied. If the bellows move freely in and out without a button depressed, they leak.

 

Hope this helps.

[Samantha]

As Mark has said, probably the best way to choose which of the systems suits you is to try them. Where are you? Let us know and someone will come up with a suggestion of where you can go to try out instruments (a shop, a session, an occasional concertina gathering).

When I was starting out I couldn't get my head/hands round an English system at all - the left-hand-right-hand way the scales work completely foxed me.

I therefore settled on the Anglo and play a 30 button instrument. I find it easy to play in C, G, D, A, E majors and their relative minors and modes. I don't think the flat keys to three flats at least would be any trickier, I just haven't headed in that direction yet. Adding harmonies does require thought and adaptation to the Anglo, but for me that is part of the sound of a concertina and the charm of learning how to play it. I tend not to go for fistfuls of chords (except sometimes ), they can drown out the melody as it is very tricky indeed on any concertina to damp the harmony and play up the tune, but for one or two harmony notes at a time.

For more information you could look at the Buyer's Guide page of concertina.net which, although heavily slanted towards the Anglo, also has information on English and duet systems. But, try before you buy is the best advice that anyone can give you.

Welcome to c.net, by the way!

Samantha

[Chris Timson]

At the risk of blowing my own trumpet (squeezing my own tina?), have you tried my site, the Concertina FAQ? The concertina types section has a full description of all the major systems, with photos, descriptions and key charts. Otherwise I agree with Samantha.

 

As a general rule, certainly in the UK, an inexpensive Anglo is likely to be closer to a decent standard of playability than a cheap English.

I would disagree with this, I'm afraid. If you are talking old instruments, then pound for pound (or dollar for dollar) a comparably priced English will be of better quality than an anglo. This reflects a market that is biased towards the anglo for a number of reasons. If you are talking new instruments, then pricing between the two systems is broadly similar. I believe this holds at all price points except the very cheapest, where whatever the system the instrument will be fit only for decorative purposes.

 

Chris

Edited December 28, 2005 by Chris Timson

[thefirstcorby]

Hmm... you've all given me good info here, thereby increasing my obsession. I'm in Oregon, USA in the general area of Portland- if anyone can point me towards a few saleable concertinas to prod, it would be wonderful.

[Plamondon]

Hmm... you've all given me good info here, thereby increasing my obsession. I'm in Oregon, USA in the general area of Portland- if anyone can point me towards a few saleable concertinas to prod, it would be wonderful.

 

I would encourage you to consider aquiring a Hayden duet concertina (from the Button Box, of course). Not only does the Hayden duet have many strengths in its own right, but also the skill and understanding you gain from its fingering will help you should you later choose to also acquire a jammer once they become available in late 2006.

[semaj1950]

When I started playing the pennywhistle I soon found that there was one thing that drove me nuts about it- the restriction of the notes. I don't like to be confined to one or two keys, or having to skip notes to play a song on an instrument.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm also a dabbler, and I'm not trying to talk you out of a concertina. What I will suggest is looking into getting whistles in different keys. They're are piles of keys. Granted, each whistle is only really convenient in 3 major and 2 minor modes, but you can make do with several keys.

 

I played with a guitarist who was more of a musical theater type player than a trad player, who played one song where he modulated at least 3 times, so I used no fewer than 3 whistles, with a banjo for the last chorus in the piece. It was probably fun to watch me scrabbling from one to the other.

 

Check out the fine folks at chiffandfipple.com for lots of great whistle key info.

 

Jim

 

PS: Is there a second corby to make up the twa o' ye?

J

[JimLucas]

When I started playing the pennywhistle I soon found that there was one thing that drove me nuts about it- the restriction of the notes. I don't like to be confined to one or two keys, or having to skip notes to play a song on an instrument.

 

Any input greatly appreciated!

Learn to half-hole for the accidentals.

[thefirstcorby]

Alright, I went and looked at the Button Box, and at Ebay, and both of them scared me. I really don't want to buy an instrument off Ebay. They're affordable there, but I can see even in the thumbnails that most of them are in bad shape. However, the Button Box exceeds my price bracket for the 30 key anglos and the englishes...es. I'm about to start calling around the local music stores to see what they have, hoping they'll have an inbetween. My new question is, is it better to buy a cheap concertina to learn on and hope I can buy a good one later, or just save my money and buy one a few years down the line? If I do buy one, it'll be of the sort that I want to own ten years from now, not a different key or family. (I was hoping to spend less than $400, and I have a backup instrument that I want to invest in if there's no concertina in the offing right now.)

 

As for pennywhistles- Noooo! No more half holing! I started the pennywhistle when I was 13 because I wanted to get away from having to fudge any notes- I was fed up with the violin, where you're swimming around in a sea of pitches and there are no landmarks. Really, I have considered buying more whistles, but they and I just don't get along. I can play my D whistle fairly well, but the music I've found for it has never really grabbed me. I picked up the German flute- classical flute, whatever you want to call it- a little while later, and I found it more suited to me.

 

And yes, there is a second corby. My choir buddy/best friend/stunning mezzo and I formed a duet recently, and we're calling ourselves Twa Corbies, after the first song we learned as an official duet. It means Two Ravens and is a sad, sad song. Two ravens talking to each other about a brave knight, killed and dumped behind a dike, whose hound has deserted him, as has his hawk, and his lady knows where he is- implicating her in his murder- but has run off with another man. Ah, you gotta love the old ballads.

[Chris Timson]

I think you're wise to avoid eBay. You really need to know your stuff before you swim in those waters, and anything decent very rarely goes at a bargain price anyway. I think you should still talk to Button Box, they are good people who do know their stuff. The best you are likely to get from a local music store is a cheap Chinese anglo sold by someone who thinks it's a sort of miniature piano accordion that'll look great in the display cabinet. Button Box will give you good advice and even (so far as I recall) rent you a concertina. No better way to find out if it suits you.

 

You will have to make your own mind up about cheap v. good, but one thing to bear in mind is that a cheap concertina will lose value all the time you own it, while a medium range instrument will hold it and a really good one will appreciate. Also the better the instrument the easier it will be to learn. I would always advise to buy the best you can afford, but of course "what you can afford" does vary a lot, I accept.

 

Chris

[Chris Allert]

Hmm... you've all given me good info here, thereby increasing my obsession. I'm in Oregon, USA in the general area of Portland- if anyone can point me towards a few saleable concertinas to prod, it would be wonderful.

 

unfortunately there isn't really anywhere on the north american west coast you can go to try out a good selection of concertinas. the closest thing is probably lark in the morning, which has stores in seattle and san francisco. they often have a selection of vintage english-system concertinas, and they carry a fairly complete selection of new stagis. but they are notoriously expensive. as far as i can tell, the premium you pay is for their location in high-rent tourist areas (pike place market in seattle and fisherman's wharf in san francisco). once in a blue moon, lark in the morning will get a new suttner or dipper and have it on display in one of their stores. to find out which good new concertinas they're expecting during the next decade (i'm not exaggerating), call the warehouse and ask for don haight. (other people i've spoken with at the warehouse don't know about concertinas and don't know how to direct my call to someone more knowledgeable).

 

petosa's in seattle also stocks a few stagis, but nothing better. it's probably not worth the visit unless you're interested in other types of squeezeboxes (of which they have just about every variety).

 

i'd echo what other people have said about what system to get. in my opinion, it's easiest to get good instruction if you decide to play irish music on anglo, but it's much easier to get a good instrument if you learn the english system. if you decide to learn anglo, i'd highly recommend attending noel hill's week-long workshop to get you started. there are quite a few people in the pacific northwest who play irish music on the anglo who i'm sure would be happy to help you get started.

 

also, be sure to come to the nortwest squeeze-in in a few months (location and date not yet known). there will probably be at least a few people there looking to sell good instruments.

 

p.s.

 

i forgot to give you my 2 cents worth about how much to spend. i don't think you can get a playable instrument for less than US$600. if you're looking for the cheapest playable instrument you can get, i'd recommend ordering from the button box. they are the only retailer of this range of instruments i know of that make the necessary repairs to them before selling them. new stagis, fresh off the assembly line, are in need of repair. the premium you pay ordering from the button box is worth it. for the anglo system, the cheapest concertina i'd recommend meeting your needs is the stagi w-15 LN for $675. this is a 30-button anglo that is probably good enough to learn on. if you don't care about being able to play in all keys (but you already said you did care) on your first instrument, then i'd recommend the 20 button stagi c-1 for $405. and i'd recommend against buying a stagi from anyone other than the button box since it will probably arrive in need of repair. unfortunately there is simply no way to make playable concertinas any cheaper. in the $1500 - $2500 range you can get a new mid-range instrument that will last a lifetime from tedrow, edgley, norman, marcus, wakker, morse, or herrington. plan to spend about $5000 and get on a 4-6 year waiting list for a really good new instrument that you can leave to future generations.

 

by the way, i don't work for the button box, and i've never bought an instrument from them, but i've met their satisfied customers and seen their instruments and would order from them if i were a beginner again.

Edited December 30, 2005 by Chris Allert

[thefirstcorby]

Well, I've done my research and a very, very good local music store has one concertina. It's a Hohner 30 key anglo, according to the clerk I talked to over the phone. One of his coworkers apparently gives lessons, so I'm hoping when I go in tomorrow he'll be there so I can grill him. They're selling it for $149, which strikes me as far, far too cheap for an even slightly playable instrument. It's looking to me like I should bide my time and wait until I can afford to get a good concertina.

[Mark Evans]

They're selling it for $149, which strikes me as far, far too cheap for an even slightly playable instrument. It's looking to me like I should bide my time and wait until I can afford to get a good concertina.

 

Wise fellow. That beast would most likely be a nightmare. Button Box is fair and helpful. An instrument from them will work well, be in tune and they will stand behind it. It's enough to learn technique without fighting an inferior instrument that bucks like a jackass with a sandspur under the saddle pad

.

[Chris Allert]

They're selling it for $149, which strikes me as far, far too cheap for an even slightly playable instrument. It's looking to me like I should bide my time and wait until I can afford to get a good concertina.

 

Wise fellow. That beast would most likely be a nightmare. Button Box is fair and helpful. An instrument from them will work well, be in tune and they will stand behind it. It's enough to learn technique without fighting an inferior instrument that bucks like a jackass with a sandspur under the saddle pad

.

 

i'll second that assessment. as far as i know, that particular concertina is a re-branded chinese concertina. i'm not sure if hohner actually manufactures concertinas in germany anymore. i think the german-made ones are comparable in quality to an italian-made stagi, but the chinese-made ones are a complete waste of money.

 

but there is another chinese-made concertina worth considering that i forgot to mention. this is the "jackie" model from the concertina connection. even though these are made in china, everyone on these forums has had only good things to say about them, and they are superior to the italian-made stagis. i'm a little concerned about how they have managed to make them so cheap (us$260) while still engaging in ethical labor practices (maybe someone from the concertina connection could comment on this. if anyone there is reading this, what kind of human rights monitoring do you do of your suppliers in china?). unfortunately, there is not yet an anglo-system concertina similar to the "jackie". i've heard a few are in the works.

[Theo]

If the 30 key Hohner for $145 is new then I'd agree with the advice already given. If it is an older Hohner then it might be worth considering, especially if you are willing to do a bit of easy diy maintenance as shown here on c.net

 

Older Hohners are usually re-badged Stagis. As far as I know all the older 30-key Hohners were made for them in Italy. Hohner moved most of their manufacturing to China a few years ago.

[semaj1950]

"And yes, there is a second corby."

 

Great old song. Back to topic:

 

Are you sure an anglo sytem is what you need? English system concertinas are fully chromatic . Have you looked at concertina connection at their Jackie and Jack models? They look well designed, and from what I understand, play nicely in tune for the princely cost of $260, shipping included. I'm more than tempted by them, but funds aren't available right now. From all I've read, they'd keep you off the streets and out of trouble for a while, till you decide how far you wish to get into concertinae.

 

Cheers,

 

Jim