Stages

[LDT]

How do you know if your a beginner, intermediate or advanced player?

What criteria do you judge by?

[Dave Rogers]

Ain't no hard & fast guidelines that I'm aware of. If you can play a dozen or so tunes at the speed they're meant to be played at (that means danceable-to in my book) without making mistakes, you're out of the "beginner" class, in my view.

 

But you're not in the "advanced" category until you can join in at most sessions with the majority of tunes without people giving you "Paddington Bear" hard looks.

 

That must make me "intermediate".

[Anglo-Irishman]

How do you know if your a beginner, intermediate or advanced player?

What criteria do you judge by?

 

I suppose there are objective criteria, but if we're honest with ourselves, we can apply subjective criteria. How do you assess yourself?

 

"I'll never be able to play the concertina properly!" - Beginner.

"I can play the concertina!" - Intermediate.

"My concertina playing is improving gradually!" - Advanced.

 

Me? I play the Anglo. I'll never be able to play the Crane duet properly.

 

However, I do think my Anglo playing has been improving gradually of late... That probably means that, with the Foothills of Beginnerhood far behind me, I'm about to leave the comfortable, flat paths of the Plateau of Intermediacy and head for the Peaks of Advancement. Allegorically speaking. (I re-read "The Pilgrim's Progress" recently.)

 

Cheers,

John

 

Cheers,

John

[Mark Evans]

unconscious incompetence

 

conscious incompetence

 

conscious competence

 

unconscious competence

[Ken_Coles]

I like the criteria used at the August Heritage Center in West Virginia when advising you which summer class to sign up for (edited to limit to music rather than dance or craft classes):

 

Augusta Heritage Center

 

Playing Levels Policy

 

Levels of ability are specified for many classes. We strongly recommend that you consider the following definitions when choosing a class:

 

* Novice or ‘from Scratch’ – Student has never tried an instrument.

 

* Beginner - Student has a basic knowledge of where the notes are, how to tune, but still needs considerable guidance in how to play. In theme week classes, student will have basic knowledge, but may have no experience with the particular style of music.

 

* Advanced Beginner – Student knows some of the basics but is not yet comfortable playing at the intermediate level.

 

* Intermediate – Student has a moderate repertoire of tunes and plays with ease at normal speed.

 

* Advanced – Student has extensive experience and is able to concentrate solely on the subtleties of style and increase their repertoire.

 

e.g. If you are doing some tunes up to speed but not ornamenting them yet, but still can learn tunes more easily than as a beginner, you're one of their intermediate students. I watched Cajun accordion students pick up a tune by ear in just a couple of minutes and right away go to how to ornament it, play variations, trade cues with the fiddler, etc. They were definitely out of the intermediate category. I was stuck at advanced beginner for a long time. I finally hit intermediate on anglo by these criteria after 3 or 4 years of effort (spread over a longer period!).

 

Just one definition, there are lots of other good ones.

 

Ken

[LDT]

I can usually pick up the melody fairly quickly (if the buttons I have to push/pull are written down...no hope of even getting started otherwise.)...but its just when I add the accompaniment it all goes pear shaped..quickest I've got both working is a month.

 

So does that stick me inbetween novice and beginner?

 

I''ve been trying to analise how I learn. I think because letters like 'A', or 'C' don't stick in my head what I do is a memorise the patterns my fingers make/numbers in the tabulature make and use the written music to judge the rythm. Now I just need to get it to stick in my head and be able to tie a letter to the buttons which I find really hard so then I can make sense to other people and they make sense to me when talking about notes.

Edited November 7, 2008 by LDT

[m3838]

I can usually pick up the melody fairly quickly (if the buttons I have to push/pull are written down...no hope of even getting started otherwise.)...but its just when I add the accompaniment it all goes pear shaped..quickest I've got both working is a month.

 

So does that stick me inbetween novice and beginner?

 

I''ve been trying to analise how I learn. I think because letters like 'A', or 'C' don't stick in my head what I do is a memorise the patterns my fingers make/numbers in the tabulature make and use the written music to judge the rythm. Now I just need to get it to stick in my head and be able to tie a letter to the buttons which I find really hard so then I can make sense to other people and they make sense to me when talking about notes.

 

Then you go to Conservatory and there it starts all over again:

Beginner: can play any music from the dots, in any key, but without much insights

Intermediate: some of the passages raise brows, but already lost enthusiasm.

Advanced: Ready to join orchestra to become enthusiastic beginner.

[Dirge]

I can usually pick up the melody fairly quickly (if the buttons I have to push/pull are written down...no hope of even getting started otherwise.)...but its just when I add the accompaniment it all goes pear shaped..quickest I've got both working is a month.

 

So does that stick me inbetween novice and beginner?

 

I''ve been trying to analise how I learn. I think because letters like 'A', or 'C' don't stick in my head what I do is a memorise the patterns my fingers make/numbers in the tabulature make and use the written music to judge the rythm. Now I just need to get it to stick in my head and be able to tie a letter to the buttons which I find really hard so then I can make sense to other people and they make sense to me when talking about notes.

 

Then you go to Conservatory and there it starts all over again:

Beginner: can play any music from the dots, in any key, but without much insights

Intermediate: some of the passages raise brows, but already lost enthusiasm.

Advanced: Ready to join orchestra to become enthusiastic beginner.

 

Sometimes that inherent Russian optimism really shines through, you know. (Right. Lovely morning here. I'm going fishing.)

[Pete Dunk]

Beginner: can play any music from the dots, in any key, but without much insights

Intermediate: some of the passages raise brows, but already lost enthusiasm.

Advanced: Ready to join orchestra to become enthusiastic beginner.

This is a very poor reply. It demoralises enthusiastic beginners. We all started somewhere you know? According to your definition only those who have have passed a baptism of fire will ever reach the exalted position of being worthy to learn. I'm a socially inept but technically bright person (like yourself) too; the difference is I don't have a chip on my shoulder or have anything to prove to anyone. You however have decided that a: the world is against you. And b: only your opinion counts.

 

Wrong in both assumptions. Why? because a: that's paranoid and b: that's narcissistic. Look back on your numerous posts and ask yourself if you ever gave impartial or hesitant advice.

 

Somehow I think your heart's in the right place but you just go way too far expounding all that is right and wrong in the field of musical teaching and learning. Am I right in thinking that you greatly respect the teaching methods used in eastern Europe but either you or your forebears have chosen to live a life in a somewhat easier regime in the West?

 

We await the m3838 guide to all that's right and proper with less than bated breath.

[Chris Drinkwater]

How do you know if your a beginner, intermediate or advanced player?

What criteria do you judge by?

 

Beginner One who has just started to learn to play an instrument.

 

Intermediate One who has been playing an instrument for some time.

 

Advanced One who has been playing same instrument for a great many years.

 

Of course, it doesn't mean you necessarily end up being an accomplished musician!

 

Chris

[m3838]

We await the m3838 guide to all that's right and proper with less than bated breath.

 

Actually it's interesting question and I'm eager to answer it.

My life philosophy is very simple: you can be anything, at any level of talent or ability, even a criminal (God forbid), but you just MUST realize what you are. If you are a poor player, it's OK, but only if you realize it. Then it becomes fine and inoffensive and you get great freedom to live YOUR life any way YOU want (with just equal amount of responsibility. If YOU decided to drive above speed limit and are caught, don't argue with Police. YOUR choice and YOUR punishment. Take it.)

Second, I disagree with your seeming assumption that people are weaklings, and always need to be cheered up, for good and for bad. "Good Job" has become an ironic remark by Russian "Patriots" in relation to stupid, naive, weak, inept "pindoses" (that's how they calle Americans). I personally think people (and Americans particularly) are pretty hardy, stoic and designed to take abuse.

The only difference is the upper middle class "new Agey" Yappies in Marin County, California. But they have reasons to be, with around million dollars on saving accounts and great paying jobs. Most people in the "convinient" West are struggling from pay check to pay check and don't need fake tapping on the shoulder.

Yes, Russians (of all ethnicities) are generally much less optimistic on the surface, they have been taught a hard way not to expect the good things come their way. But folks in the so called "West" are the same, only they have been taught by lawyers to smile a lot. It's coming this way in Russia too.

Thirdly, I don't really see, where you found discouragement in my statement. The opposite is true, the core of it is: "Life goes on, and there is no end of climbing the ladder".

Haven't you become a little too conditioned by easy compliments?

 

Now, what is right and wrong in music.

Well, everything I like is wright, and dislike - is wrong. Isn't it the utter truth?

Thanks.

[Leonard]

Beginner: can play any music from the dots, in any key, but without much insights

Intermediate: some of the passages raise brows, but already lost enthusiasm.

Advanced: Ready to join orchestra to become enthusiastic beginner.

This is a very poor reply. It demoralises enthusiastic beginners. We all started somewhere you know? According to your definition only those who have have passed a baptism of fire will ever reach the exalted position of being worthy to learn. I'm a socially inept but technically bright person (like yourself) too; the difference is I don't have a chip on my shoulder or have anything to prove to anyone. You however have decided that a: the world is against you. And b: only your opinion counts.

 

Wrong in both assumptions. Why? because a: that's paranoid and b: that's narcissistic. Look back on your numerous posts and ask yourself if you ever gave impartial or hesitant advice.

 

Somehow I think your heart's in the right place but you just go way too far expounding all that is right and wrong in the field of musical teaching and learning. Am I right in thinking that you greatly respect the teaching methods used in eastern Europe but either you or your forebears have chosen to live a life in a somewhat easier regime in the West?

 

We await the m3838 guide to all that's right and proper with less than bated breath.

Yes, Misha's contributions are always pronounced and looking for "the truth according to M3838". That's exactly what makes them so recognisably subjective. They help to look from another perspective. I don't think that's poor. And it didn't demoralised me when I was a beginner.......

[hjcjones]

I think all M3838 was trying to say is that the stages applicable to amateurs and to professionals are on different levels, and that even an advanced amateur will be on the lower rung when compared with professional musicians.

 

It may be true in the world of "serious" music (how I hate that term). In other genres, I'm not so sure. In folk music, which is the field I know best, there are plenty of amateur musicians on all instruments who can compare with the professionals, and indeed might be capable of turning pro if they so wished, but have chosen not to.

[Pete Dunk]

We await the m3838 guide to all that's right and proper with less than bated breath.

 

Actually it's interesting question and I'm eager to answer it.

My life philosophy is very simple: you can be anything, at any level of talent or ability, even a criminal (God forbid), but you just MUST realize what you are. If you are a poor player, it's OK, but only if you realize it. Then it becomes fine and inoffensive and you get great freedom to live YOUR life any way YOU want (with just equal amount of responsibility. If YOU decided to drive above speed limit and are caught, don't argue with Police. YOUR choice and YOUR punishment. Take it.)

 

I couldn't agree more, I'm a great advocate of people realising their personal limitations. As it happens I delight in remaining within mine while watching my 'superiors' making a complete hash of their jobs because they have risen to the level of their own incompetence.

 

Second, I disagree with your seeming assumption that people are weaklings, and always need to be cheered up, for good and for bad. "Good Job" has become an ironic remark by Russian "Patriots" in relation to stupid, naive, weak, inept "pindoses" (that's how they calle Americans). I personally think people (and Americans particularly) are pretty hardy, stoic and designed to take abuse.

 

Here is where you and I differ. As it happens I don't suffer fools gladly and believe me I'd be the last person to give praise if it wasn't due. Your approach 'appears' to warn people off trying to realise their ambitions unless they have the approved degree of aptitude and skill. My opinion is more that people will get from music what they put in, simple as that.

 

The only difference is the upper middle class "new Agey" Yappies in Marin County, California. But they have reasons to be, with around million dollars on saving accounts and great paying jobs. Most people in the "convinient" West are struggling from pay check to pay check and don't need fake tapping on the shoulder.

 

I won't even pretend to understand this statement and I'll write it off as being uniquely American!

 

Yes, Russians (of all ethnicities) are generally much less optimistic on the surface, they have been taught a hard way not to expect the good things come their way. But folks in the so called "West" are the same, only they have been taught by lawyers to smile a lot. It's coming this way in Russia too.

Lawyers? don't talk to me about lawyers.

 

Thirdly, I don't really see, where you found discouragement in my statement. The opposite is true, the core of it is: "Life goes on, and there is no end of climbing the ladder".

Haven't you become a little too conditioned by easy compliments?

 

I hope not, but we're back with the hoary old question of is the cup half empty or half full? For me the cup is always half full. I agree that there is never an end to climbing the ladder (and long may it be so because if there are no more challenges you might as well be dead).

 

Now, what is right and wrong in music.

Well, everything I like is wright, and dislike - is wrong. Isn't it the utter truth?

Thanks.

 

[Leo]

The only difference is the upper middle class "new Agey" Yappies in Marin County, California. But they have reasons to be, with around million dollars on saving accounts and great paying jobs. Most people in the "convinient" West are struggling from pay check to pay check and don't need fake tapping on the shoulder.

 

I won't even pretend to understand this statement and I'll write it off as being uniquely American!

Don't blame us! I didn't understand it either

California is a culture all it's own. It has nothing to do with the US

 

Thanks

Leo

[Dirge]

....... is the cup half empty or half full? For me the cup is always half full.

 

 

Maybe so but beer mugs are ALWAYS half empty.

[m3838]

The only difference is the upper middle class "new Agey" Yappies in Marin County, California. But they have reasons to be, with around million dollars on saving accounts and great paying jobs. Most people in the "convinient" West are struggling from pay check to pay check and don't need fake tapping on the shoulder.

 

I won't even pretend to understand this statement and I'll write it off as being uniquely American!

Don't blame us! I didn't understand it either

California is a culture all it's own. It has nothing to do with the US

 

Thanks

Leo

 

I happen to take massage classes in Marin County, California. Some of the advices from the teachers will get roaring laughter from any Russian, and I suspect, any normal American as well. But here in the Land of the Golden Eggs they are taken with serious faces.

Such subjects as "Emotional Release", Music healing, dealing with fashionable nowadays "Past Sexual Abuse" etc. will put any teacher anywhere in the World out of business or in Comedy Club. Not in Marin County! Here a pimple on the nose can be a source for artistic inspiration.

 

But why some folks take my posts in straight over the forehead manner, I am not able to understand. I guess some people just are born to take things for face value.

[RatFace]

Back on subject:

 

How do you know if your a beginner, intermediate or advanced player?

What criteria do you judge by?

 

The only way is to compare yourself to others. It's up to you how you pick the others - unless somebody else is asking you how good you are, and then you have to decide what kind of pool of players they are thinking of.

 

Since there aren't that many concertina players around (and almost all are amateurs), you might want to consider non-concertina players as well, to help put things into context. This, perhaps unfortunately, moves most concertina players down quite a few notches. (As an example, I somehow made it onto the English International CD.... but there's no way I would ever come close to making it onto "Cello International", even if it was restricted to amateurs... yet I'm actually far better at playing the cello than the concertina - it's just intrinsically harder...).

 

The things to judge yourself on are technical ability, ability to phrase, ability to improvise, ability to sight read, ability to understand and express the structure in the music, ability to recognise good music and play it in preference to not-so-good music(!), ability to harmonise... all or some of these things and more! Again - the criteria depend on the context of the question - if it's for you, then what you think important - if someone else is asking, then it's what they think is important.