Why English Or Anglo?

[thetownpiper]

Hi all...

 

I know you experienced players are gonna roll your eyes, but please bear with me. I've heard that English sets are better for voice accompanient and Anglo better for Irish stuff.... but why? And if you own an English, can you play regular tunes?

 

Thanks....

Dave Parkhurst

Edited July 27, 2006 by thetownpiper

[bill_mchale]

Hi all...

 

I know you experienced players are gonna roll your eyes, but please bear with me. I've heard that English sets are better for voice accompanient and Anglo better for Irish stuff.... but why? And if you own an English, can you play regular tunes?

 

Actually I always thought that it was duets that werer better for song accompaniment.

 

In any case, the reason for Anglo being better is that Irish Concertina Music developed on it. So therefore the rhytem of Irish Concertina Music naturally falls from the Anglo. That being said, considering most Irish Music is either fiddle music or adapted for the the fiddle, there is no reason that an English can't play Irish Music, but it will probably have a slightly different rhytem.

 

--

Bill

[Chris Timson]

I've heard that English sets are better for voice accompanient and Anglo better for Irish stuff.... but why? And if you own an English, can you play regular tunes?

Please, form your own opinion on this one. This sort of "received wisdom" is the curse of the concertina world. I will confine myself to just one comment. Yes, you can play regular tunes on the English quite as well as irregular ones.

 

Chris

[Chris Timson]

That being said, considering most Irish Music is either fiddle music or adapted for the the fiddle, there is no reason that an English can't play Irish Music, but it will probably have a slightly different rhytem.

That statement is completely correct, Bill, but I son't see how you get from there to the previous one. If I was feeling provocative, I would have said something like: the flowing nature of Irish music means that anglo players have to put a lot of work into overcoming the inherent bouncyness of the anglo, a problem that English players don't have. Therefore the English is actually better for Irish music than the anglo. But I'm not feeling provocative, and so all I will say is: play what you want on what you want. They are both good systems (and the English has the advantage of being cheaper, quality for quality).

 

Chris

(who plays anglo and lives with an English player)

[Brian Peters]

Actually I always thought that it was duets that were better for song accompaniment.

I've been accompanying songs of all kinds on an Anglo for twenty-five years. John Kirkpatrick doesn't do so badly, either. And Jody Kruskal was singing with Anglo on his recent visit. You are limited to some extent in choice of keys, and possibly in the sophistication of the accompaniment you can produce - but then this is accompaniment we are talking about, not an instrumental feature. What you can produce on any of these instruments is limited largely by your own imagination and the amount of work you're prepared to put into the project.

Brian

[Mark Evans]

In any case, the reason for Anglo being better is that Irish Concertina Music developed on it.

Bill

 

Huh? Irish Concertina Music? Now what would that be? Most of the chunes' we play at session are older than dirt (which pre-dates even the first German concertinas arrival on the emerald shore). What am I doing anyway, Chris said it all and I promised myself not to enter into this fray ever again. Must go give myself a good talkin' to.

[Dave Higham]

I once listened to a very repected Irish musician explaining some basics to a beginner on whistle playing. Perhaps he was referring to a particular style, but he told the beginner to take a deep breath and play the tune breathing out for as long as he could without any 'tongueing' or 'tutting' giving a very smooth sound to what was a lively jig.

So why on earth did they choose the Anglo instead of the English to play the same music?

Was it, perhaps, that they could accept an Anglo-German instrument but never an English? <g> (Tongue firmly in cheek but ducking-and-running anyway!)

[bill_mchale]

That being said, considering most Irish Music is either fiddle music or adapted for the the fiddle, there is no reason that an English can't play Irish Music, but it will probably have a slightly different rhytem.

That statement is completely correct, Bill, but I son't see how you get from there to the previous one. If I was feeling provocative, I would have said something like: the flowing nature of Irish music means that anglo players have to put a lot of work into overcoming the inherent bouncyness of the anglo, a problem that English players don't have. Therefore the English is actually better for Irish music than the anglo. But I'm not feeling provocative, and so all I will say is: play what you want on what you want. They are both good systems (and the English has the advantage of being cheaper, quality for quality).

 

Chris

(who plays anglo and lives with an English player)

 

How I get there is simple, though perhaps I should have stated it. I would have to look up the citation, but I do remember reading that the original purpose of the English Concertina was to create an instrument that could play music written for violins. If it can play music written for violins, it should be able to play music written for fiddle.

 

Regarding the "flowing nature" of Irish music, well, that all depends on where in Ireland you are from. The music of Galways is definitely flowing, but Kerry music is pretty bouncy.

 

Personally, I still recommend that if someone really wants to play Irish Music that they look into getting an Anglo if for no other reason than that is what all the teaching resources assume, and what is taught in workshops. An English can play Irish Music, but you are all but on your own in figuring out how to make it work in Irish Music.

 

--

Bill

[bill_mchale]

In any case, the reason for Anglo being better is that Irish Concertina Music developed on it.

Bill

 

Huh? Irish Concertina Music? Now what would that be? Most of the chunes' we play at session are older than dirt (which pre-dates even the first German concertinas arrival on the emerald shore). What am I doing anyway, Chris said it all and I promised myself not to enter into this fray ever again. Must go give myself a good talkin' to.

 

I am not referring to the age of the tunes (Though some of the ones we play in my session are pretty new), rather it is the fact that each musical instrument kind of develops its own dialect within a musical tradition. Players of the instrument will adapt tunes a particular way, ornament different spots in the tune, use different styles of ornamentation etc. Alot of this comes naturally from the way the instrument is played. A person playing a different instrument may or maynot be able to emulate the style of a particular instrument, but it is alot easier to emulate the style on the particular instrument. Thus even if they are all playing the same tunes, there is Irish Fiddle Music, Irish Accordion Music, Irish Flute Music, Irish Concertina Music, etc.

 

--

Bill

[Chris Timson]

So why on earth did they choose the Anglo instead of the English to play the same music?

Was it, perhaps, that they could accept an Anglo-German instrument but never an English? <g> (Tongue firmly in cheek but ducking-and-running anyway!)

The answer's much more boring, unfortunately. Money. The German concertina was cheap. Not the cheapest of all instruments, but pretty cheap. And you could get several for the price of even the cheapest of English concertinas. The anglo was the choice of the English country musician for basically the same reason. The English concertina was a middle class instrument. However we don't need to let the class wars of the 19th century dictate our choice of instruments in the 21st. If Irish music didn't allow of new instruments then the bouzouki players would be cowering in the outer darkness right now.

 

Personally, I still recommend that if someone really wants to play Irish Music that they look into getting an Anglo if for no other reason than that is what all the teaching resources assume, and what is taught in workshops. An English can play Irish Music, but you are all but on your own in figuring out how to make it work in Irish Music.

There is a limited amount of truth in this statement, but there are players on this forum who can help out. Henrik, for instance, a frequent contributor, plays magnificent Irish music on the English concertina. To listen to Henrik play with Jonathan Taylor (English player and occasional contributor) is to taste the pure drop.

 

While most English concertina tutors have a bias towards either classical or English music, the problems involved in playing have much in common whatever the musical style, and your best tutor, whatever instrument you play, is other musicians, whatever music they play.

 

There is a detectable note of irony in an anglo player who plays mostly English music defending the use of the English concertina for Irish music, but the attempt to lay down the law on which system one should use for what music always gets so far up my nose it damn near comes out the back of my head. The point for me is that all the systems (let's not forget the duets) tend to appeal to different types of people. If you choose the wrong system for you because someone said you have to play the anglo for Irish music or the English for song accompaniment or whatever then you will get discouraged and will not persist and (self fulfilling prophecy) all the Irish concertina players will be anglo players. But if you find the system that suits you, then you will want to play it, and you will find ways of playing the music you want to play on the system that you like.

 

By telling people what they should play rather than letting them choose and then helping them is to a) perpetuate some old shibboleths that are way past their sell by dates, and put some people off playing the concertina quite unnecessarily.

 

There, I've said my piece. I think I might put it in the FAQ.

 

Chris

 

Edited to add PS. Having used the word shibboleth I realised that I didn't really know what it meant, so I looked it up. And here it is:-

Language usage indicative of one's regional and/or social origins used to identify members of one's own or of another group. Borrowed from Biblical Hebrew; refers to the story in the Book of Judges 12:5-6 in which shibboleth was used by the Gileadites as a password to identify the Ephraimites by their dialectal pronunciation.

Edited July 28, 2006 by Chris Timson

[DavidFR]

Hi all...

 

I know you experienced players are gonna roll your eyes, but please bear with me. I've heard that English sets are better for voice accompanient and Anglo better for Irish stuff.... but why? And if you own an English, can you play regular tunes?

 

Thanks....

Dave Parkhurst

I see this thread has engendered quite a bit of controversy, and even riled some emotions here.

 

It would be a fallacy to say that one system is inherently better than another; I think it would be more appropriate to say that different fingering systems work best for different people. The Anglo system makes perfect sense to me, while I find English and Duet layouts difficult and practically incomprehensible. I think if you find the right system for you, you will be able to play whatever music on it you prefer.

 

That said - there has been a tendency among existing players to use the Anglo for Irish and Morris music, the English for English, classical, and song accompaniment, and the Duet for song accompaniment and anything else that comes to mind.

 

However - There are fantastic examples of Anglo song accompaniers (John Roberts and Jody Kruskal come to mind), and I know of a great English morris player and a great Duet player of Irish-style music. So really, you can play any kind of music on any concertina. As an anglo player, I would for myself not suggest classical music on the anglo. It can be done, but it's kinda sucky. Not a great idea.

 

-David

[bill_mchale]

So why on earth did they choose the Anglo instead of the English to play the same music?

Was it, perhaps, that they could accept an Anglo-German instrument but never an English? <g> (Tongue firmly in cheek but ducking-and-running anyway!)

The answer's much more boring, unfortunately. Money. The German concertina was cheap. Not the cheapest of all instruments, but pretty cheap. And you could get several for the price of even the cheapest of English concertinas. The anglo was the choice of the English country musician for basically the same reason. The English concertina was a middle class instrument. However we don't need to let the class wars of the 19th century dictate our choice of instruments in the 21st. If Irish music didn't allow of new instruments then the bouzouki players would be cowering in the outer darkness right now.

 

Mind you, there are some people within Irish Music who would be more than happy if that were the case . But since they would also probably feel the same way about the button accordion, we will be happy to forget about them.

 

Personally, I still recommend that if someone really wants to play Irish Music that they look into getting an Anglo if for no other reason than that is what all the teaching resources assume, and what is taught in workshops. An English can play Irish Music, but you are all but on your own in figuring out how to make it work in Irish Music.

There is a limited amount of truth in this statement, but there are players on this forum who can help out. Henrik, for instance, a frequent contributor, plays magnificent Irish music on the English concertina. To listen to Henrik play with Jonathan Taylor (English player and occasional contributor) is to taste the pure drop.

 

Come on here Chris, with all respect to Henrik, even if he was amazing, he is still one guy who happens to be thousands of miles away from most of us. And as useful as these forums are, their utility for actually learning to play the music is limited. I have heard a fair number of English players play Irish Music, only a few of them really capture the idiom of Irish Anglo-Concertina Music, the rest are essentially working at creating a new idiom. It might ultimately catch on, but then again it might not. Now if someone wants to be part of introducing a new instrument into Irish Music, then more power to them, but they need to recognize that they may never gain the acceptence they are hoping for... for every bouzouki there is a saxaphone (which in the 50s was showing up in some ceili bands).

 

In contrast, there are at least two decent written tutors, a video and the Mad for Trad CD Rom available, a number of the Irish weeks around the globe now include Anglo Concertina in their lesson schedules (often with some of the best players in the world teaching).

 

While most English concertina tutors have a bias towards either classical or English music, the problems involved in playing have much in common whatever the musical style, and your best tutor, whatever instrument you play, is other musicians, whatever music they play.

 

I am going to have to disagree with you here. Most musical styles have their own idioms and learning to play one idiom does not necessarily make it easier for you to learn a new idiom. In some cases the opposite is the case. I was talking to Donna Long who teaches Fiddle and Piano in Baltimore and also leads the Beginners/Intermediate Session on Monday nights. I made a comment that she must like it when she gets a fiddle student who has been classically trained before they came to her.. because at least they already know how to get a good tone out of the instrument. Her comment was that it was nice, but that alot of them ended up giving up on playing Irish Fiddle because it was too different to what they were use to. To take it further, there is little point in me trying to learn how to ornament a tune by listening to a fiddle player... an Anglo concertina simply can't do alot of the ornaments a Fiddle can (which is ok, because neither can the fiddle do many of the Anglo ornaments). Its important to listen to players of other instruments, but we have to recognize the real limitations. Ultimately, the best resource is a skilled player of your instrument, playing the style you want to play in who can give you lessons.

 

There is a detectable note of irony in an anglo player who plays mostly English music defending the use of the English concertina for Irish music, but the attempt to lay down the law on which system one should use for what music always gets so far up my nose it damn near comes out the back of my head. The point for me is that all the systems (let's not forget the duets) tend to appeal to different types of people. If you choose the wrong system for you because someone said you have to play the anglo for Irish music or the English for song accompaniment or whatever then you will get discouraged and will not persist and (self fulfilling prophecy) all the Irish concertina players will be anglo players. But if you find the system that suits you, then you will want to play it, and you will find ways of playing the music you want to play on the system that you like.

 

Who attempted to lay the law down here Chris. The original poster asked why Anglo was considered best for Irish Music and I explained that it was because Irish Concertina Music developed on the Anglo. Later in the thread I stated why I think the Anglo is the better choice, and gave some very solid reasons, but I have stated at several points that the English could be used to play Irish, but that there were obstacles (both social and in terms of learning resources) that a player would have to overcome. Nothing I said there was false or misleading. Yes choosing the wrong instrument for you can get you discouraged, but so can choosing an instrument where you find that there are very few resources to help you along, or that in the extreme case, may not be accepted in the local session (admittedly not likely, outside of Clare, few people probably know enough to tell the difference between an Anglo and an English). There are two English players who show up occasionally at the sessions I attend, one of them does a credible job of playing Irish Music on the English, the other does not. If the first guy never showed up, and this other person was the only exposure I had to the English Concertina, I am not sure I would be that welcoming of other English Concertina players.

 

By telling people what they should play rather than letting them choose and then helping them is to a) perpetuate some old shibboleths that are way past their sell by dates, and put some people off playing the concertina quite unnecessarily.

 

Chris, No offense, but I think you are being way over sensative here, no one said anyone "should" play anything. Everything here was statements of facts, and individual preferences. I do think however that one's choice of instrument does need to be informed by the music you want to play. If a person wants to choose an instrument that is rare (or even non-existent) in the music they play, that is find, but they should at least understand that going in.

 

--

Bill

[Mark Evans]

Players of the instrument will adapt tunes a particular way, ornament different spots in the tune, use different styles of ornamentation etc. Alot of this comes naturally from the way the instrument is played.

Bill

 

And there we have it Bill, for I play the English Concertina, not an Anglo.

 

At our session, we have regularly three fiddlers; a mother and teen age son who play in unison even on the ornaments perfectly together and a fellow whose style and tone is completely different. From time to time a young lady shows up who is quite different from the other three. All of their diversity is the texture of the music and honest without a doubt.

 

Our two flautists are night and day in their approach. It is excepted, expected and enjoyed.

 

There is often another English conertinist whose comfort and desire lay in hornpipes, laments and beautifully accompanied songs, while I love this as well and am asked to sing many songs I accompany, my love is to run like a scalded dog on reels with the fiddles.

 

We are frequently joined by an Irish gentleman who plays accordion. There is no problem. We make room for one another and have a wonderful time playing sometimes time about, sometimes together. Our rendition of the Teatotaler's and Concertina reels is a wonderfull swaggering blast (and honk).

 

Long ago I learned that a ridgid pedagogy is a trap. When a voice teacher told me this or that way was the only method of singing, I immedately questioned their method and eventually disentangled myself from their association. I spent the next 30 years unlearning that which was beaten into me as a lad. Now an old dog, I'm still able to listen, learn and employ variant techniques so that I am completely comfortable with The Foggy Dew, Yonder Stands Little Maggie or La Donna e mobile. Oh I forgot to mention one of my favorite cowboy tunes...Don't Fence Me In .

 

I know where you are coming from Bill and you are by no means alone. Over time I've gratefully found that I am also not alone. Perhaps it is best to agree to disagree. I believe I'll sign off and play a quick round of Maid Behing the Bar/Star of Munster and hope one day we have an opportunity to play a few together and perhaps down a pinter or two .

[bill_mchale]

I once listened to a very repected Irish musician explaining some basics to a beginner on whistle playing. Perhaps he was referring to a particular style, but he told the beginner to take a deep breath and play the tune breathing out for as long as he could without any 'tongueing' or 'tutting' giving a very smooth sound to what was a lively jig.

So why on earth did they choose the Anglo instead of the English to play the same music?

Was it, perhaps, that they could accept an Anglo-German instrument but never an English? <g> (Tongue firmly in cheek but ducking-and-running anyway!)

 

Mind you, every instrument, and even every region of Ireland has its own style of playing. Whistle and flute music does tend to be very smooth, but it would be a mistake to then assume that all other Irish music is also played that way.

 

--

Bill

[bill_mchale]

Long ago I learned that a ridgid pedagogy is a trap. When a voice teacher told me this or that way was the only method of singing, I immedately questioned their method and eventually disentangled myself from their association. I spent the next 30 years unlearning that which was beaten into me as a lad. Now an old dog, I'm still able to listen, learn and employ variant techniques so that I am completely comfortable with The Foggy Dew, Yonder Stands Little Maggie or La Donna e mobile. Oh I forgot to mention one of my favorite cowboy tunes...Don't Fence Me In .

 

I know where you are coming from Bill and you are by no means alone. Over time I've gratefully found that I am also not alone. Perhaps it is best to agree to disagree. I believe I'll sign off and play a quick round of Maid Behing the Bar/Star of Munster and hope one day we have an opportunity to play a few together and perhaps down a pinter or two .

 

Mark, no offence, but where did you get the idea that I was advocating a rigid pedagogy.. hell in the very first post I made to this thread, I said there was no reason an English Concertina couldn't play Irish Music!. All I have said in this thread, and it is something I will stand by is that those who choose the English Concertina over the Anglo Concertina for Irish Music have significant handicaps that are based on the fact the English has historically not been common in Irish Music. As a result there are few learning resources available to play Irish Music on the English and no existing accepted idioms. I never said one shouldn't get an English if that is what they really want to play, I simply gave my recommendation that the anglo gives one alot more choices in terms of learning resources.

[Susanne]

Please, form your own opinion on this one. This sort of "received wisdom" is the curse of the concertina world. I will confine myself to just one comment. Yes, you can play regular tunes on the English quite as well as irregular ones.

 

Chris

 

 

I agree on this even if I'm very unexperienced in concertina playing. I play an English because I came across one at a very good price, but now I'm very glad I did find an English.

It's very handy not having to think of pulling or pushing!! On the English concertina it's the same note in and out and I just love that. It's also easy to form chords because the keys are placed in arpeggio patterns. So, the English is good for song accompaniment, but I bet you can also do that on an anglo, and yes, you can play tunes on an English concertina.

[stuart estell]

I'm with both Bill and Chris on this one - - be aware of how instruments are used within the traditions you want to explore, but at the end of the day, do your own thing. Play an instrument that suits you, otherwise you'll end up not playing at all.

 

I spent the next 30 years unlearning that which was beaten into me as a lad.

 

You know I often think that in music unlearning is as important as learning - and actually a good deal harder - as so much of what we are taught, unless we're very lucky with our teachers, gives us inhibitions rather than making us freer.

[Roger Gawley]

I am going to have to disagree with you here. Most musical styles have their own idioms and learning to play one idiom does not necessarily make it easier for you to learn a new idiom. In some cases the opposite is the case. I was talking to Donna Long who teaches Fiddle and Piano in Baltimore and also leads the Beginners/Intermediate Session on Monday nights. I made a comment that she must like it when she gets a fiddle student who has been classically trained before they came to her.. because at least they already know how to get a good tone out of the instrument. Her comment was that it was nice, but that alot of them ended up giving up on playing Irish Fiddle because it was too different to what they were use to. To take it further, there is little point in me trying to learn how to ornament a tune by listening to a fiddle player... an Anglo concertina simply can't do alot of the ornaments a Fiddle can (which is ok, because neither can the fiddle do many of the Anglo ornaments). Its important to listen to players of other instruments, but we have to recognize the real limitations. Ultimately, the best resource is a skilled player of your instrument, playing the style you want to play in who can give you lessons.

 

I mainly agree with this but (always a but) the estimable Emily Ball who was leading our Engilsh concertina class until recently got us listening to fiddle players, Anglo players, whistle players to see what we could learn from them in our approach to a tune.

 

At the end of the day you are yourself, playing the instrument you are playing and trying to imitate something else is futile, but you can often "borrow" some good ideas.

 

Roger