10 replies to this topic

[Mike Jones]

I picked this up cheaply on an on-line auction recently. The style of fretwork behind the palm rest looked familiar together with the rusty riveted steel action. But I've not seen one with such minimal fretwork on the ends nor this size and shape of the reeds and shoes in a Jones before.

 

My inference is that, if a Jones, it is likely to be before he introduced his broad reeds thus pre-1880. Can anyone confirm this or give me a positive ID (and a likely date range as well?).

 

The number stamped into the woodwork inside is 1632 on both ends of reed pans and bellows frames. It has wood screws going down into the bellows frame (two of which are sheared), Mahogany action pan, 7mm diameter bone buttons, 27mm long, of which the last 7mm form the location pin. The internal cover to the fretwork appears to be genuine white leather like very fine bookbinding leather (I have a friend who is a bookbinder) and not the usual fabric used by Lachenal et al. The palm rests are of square form without the more usual dome shape on top and hend in by two rusty steel dome-headed wood screws. The bellows are brown leather with dot and cross pattern end papers. Unfortunately, although it has not been too badly treated (it appears to be complete) there are no labels.

 

I would post more pictures if it were not for the forum size limitation, but can send more directly if anyone wants some, so PM me if you do.

 

Many thanks in anticipation

 

Mike

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[nkgibbs]

Mike,
Are the clamp bars holding the reeds onto the reed frames drilled with circular holes or are the ends of the clamps 'open' ?
Hard to describe but have a look at

http://www.concertin...ies/D270g3b.jpg

Neil

[Mike Jones]

Hi Neil,

 

They are circular drilled not slotted/open. The reeds and shoes look like Lachenal/Wheatstone reeds I have seen but with a precisely stamped note letter clearly defined on the rounded end, unlike most of the other Lachenal/Wheatstone reeds I have seen. Are open clamps totally /definitively diagnostic of a Jones? Looking at the reedpan illustrated in C332 (see below) none of the clamps there appear to be slotted.

 

I found C333 on the Concertina museum website with the same fretwork but different action and reed pans and also the turned bottom pegs of the bone buttons enter directly to holes in action board, the holes penetrating right through the action plinth and action board. C332 has very similar action and reed pans to mine but more ornate fretwork, as do some of the other Jones concertinas featured.

 

I wonder if after the fire in 1857 GJ was forced to buy in components from Lachenal and/or Wheatstone to continue manufacturing or is this the influence of Mr. Shaller introducing tooling in the manner of Lachenal (my interpretation of the Butler history)? So could this be a just post 1857 example?

 

MIke

[nicx66]

Are there any other examples of steel rods used for the action? I thought that they almost always used brass. Nice find!

Edited by nicx66, 25 November 2017 - 08:23 PM.

[hielandman]

Hi Mike, 

I saw this when you posted it, but haven't had the time to do the digging I needed to do in order to respond....today I was able to get to it. 

 

I have a similar concertina I bought on ebay around four years ago.  That year, on a visit east to NY from his Kentucky home, Greg Jowaisas believed/believes it to be a Nickolds.  Mine has the identical font/size/style of printing that yours does.  And, from the fret work, though more sparse than mine, is of a similar style.  My serial number is 1258.  Same round steel rods(flattened for the pivot post pin, screw, whatever), brass pivot posts.  I bet the reed chamber walls are made of the same mahogany as the action board?  Mine is.  Is the low C on the left hand side marked "cc"?  Mine is, picture below.  Also Lachenal Type papers.   And the same robust reed shoes(much beefier than Lachenal reed shoes)The differences....

 

Though it doesn't show in the photos(I forgot it was a point of interest), the hand rests are very slightly domed, not as much as a Lachenal, but not flat, either.  Mine has machine screws, not wood screws. Mine also has a woodscrew going through the action board, into a supporting piece, into the hand rest.  Your's doesn't seem to.  Mine also, instead of the reddish material(I don't think of it as fabric) Lachenal used to cover the action, this has a type of very fine screen, like I have seen on some 19th century German made instruments.  I wonder is the leather on yours was done by someone down the road?   I think the majority of the differences in our instruments were due mine being a higher grade one, not a different maker.

 

 

I also have a typical 20 button Jones to compare it to.  Totally different, un-inked/unburned, and much smaller serial number stamped in.  Reeds and reed shoes very, very similar.  But the low C is only marked "C".  Also, the F#s on the Jones are marked as such, but only read "F" on the Nickolds.  What does yours say?  My Jones serial number is two different ones, the action board says 8579, and the reed pans and bellows frames are 8580! (someone was asleep at the wheel that day!)  One side had a screw through a block in the action board going into the hand rest, the other side doesn't, but it does have a glued up hole, and a broken screw in the underside of the handrest.   

 

I may be wrong, but this is what I think......I think that instead of this maker buying parts from Lachenal(reeds, reed frames, actions, all entirely different from Lachenal), this maker, presumably Nickolds, BOUGHT his parts from Jones!  I don't think either of these instruments were made by Jones, because I think that Jone's with serial numbers that low would have had an air lever instead of an air button.  But I could be wrong!  Would Stephen C., David E, or Greg J. care to chime in?  And, there are quite a few others out there with knowledge of this stuff, probably far more extensive than mine.  Any opinions on who made these?  

Thanks for your time and input, 

Don Smith

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[Mike Jones]

Are there any other examples of steel rods used for the action? I thought that they almost always used brass. Nice find!

I recently repaired a 32 button Jones, e 1880 (no cartouche on the palm rests and she tells me dated to 1872) for a friend, it too has steel action rods.

 

 

 

I bet the reed chamber walls are made of the same mahogany as the action board?  Mine is.  Is the low C on the left hand side marked "cc"?  Mine is, picture below.  Also Lachenal Type papers.   And the same robust reed shoes(much beefier than Lachenal reed shoes.

 

Though it doesn't show in the photos(I forgot it was a point of interest), the hand rests are very slightly domed, not as much as a Lachenal, but not flat, either.  Mine has machine screws, not wood screws. Mine also has a woodscrew going through the action board, into a supporting piece, into the hand rest.  Your's doesn't seem to.  Mine also, instead of the reddish material(I don't think of it as fabric) Lachenal used to cover the action, this has a type of very fine screen, like I have seen on some 19th century German made instruments.  I wonder is the leather on yours was done by someone down the road?   I think the majority of the differences in our instruments were due mine being a higher grade one, not a different maker.

 

 

I also have a typical 20 button Jones to compare it to.  Totally different, un-inked/unburned, and much smaller serial number stamped in.  Reeds and reed shoes very, very similar.  But the low C is only marked "C".  Also, the F#s on the Jones are marked as such, but only read "F" on the Nickolds.  What does yours say?  My Jones serial number is two different ones, the action board says 8579, and the reed pans and bellows frames are 8580! (someone was asleep at the wheel that day!)  One side had a screw through a block in the action board going into the hand rest, the other side doesn't, but it does have a glued up hole, and a broken screw in the underside of the handrest.   

 

 

Don Smith

 

 

Don,

sorry, No to mahogany reed chamber walls, no double stamped reed shoes, Reeds; F* are stamped F*, Hand rests definitely flat topped, no supporting pieces .

 

Yes: to more robust reed shoes and Lachenal type end papers. My example has five fold brown leather bellows

 

I've posted more photos to show the baffle, chambered side of the reed pan and palm rests.

 

Looks as though there is no "definitive" answer to my questions, but it is fun having the debate and I had not realised how many small differences there are between concertinas in respect to makes, models and over time.

 

Mike

[hielandman]

Hi Mike, 

yeah, this stuff can make your head hurt!  Truth to tell, Greg J. suggested at one point that it might be a Jones, due to the many similarities...Another thing to consider, is, that in those "heady" days of concertina making, a lot of craftsmen brought work home, to be done at home, making whatever their specialty was, and bringing it back to the factory for final assembly.  Knowing how people are,  I don't think that we can assume that they "only" performed these services for one client.  And, how many different sub-contractors may have been involved, with several different companies...We may never know the exact maker of either of these instruments, but, it's fun trying to figure it out, isn't it?  All the best, take care, 

Don

[nkgibbs]

The reason for asking about open screw slots on the reed clamp was that they seem to have mainly be used in various Nickolds.
They, F.C. & Bros, also used a 'c' shaped pivot or a riveted, round section pivot, which is unlike the 'keyhole' pivots in Mike's or hielandman's photos. My money would therefore not be on Nickolds as a maker?
All the best,
Neil

[Mike Jones]

Hi Neil,

 

I agree, not a Nickolds.

 

I was looking more closely at the bellows today with a view to tackling the repairs needed. I noticed that there appeared to be splits in the end binding where they meet the folds. When I looked more closely  it seems to me that the end binding does not cover the top end of the first fold but is trimmed at the edge of that fold. The top edge of the bellows is similarly finished and the two sealed together with another length of binding and it is this binding that has split in places. There is still the linen/fabric in situ stretching from the bellows end folds to the bellows frame, in place and apparently in good condition. I have not yet been able to take a good enough photo to post to show this..

 

Has anyone ever come across this method of attaching and finishing ?

 

Mike

[hielandman]

Not a Nickolds, how dis-appointing!  

[Mike Jones]

Not by Jabez Austen either. I believe on balance it is a Jones. Now to get it back into working order. Buttons already re-bushed and new springs and pads. Clean the reeds next and replace the valves, then the bellows for which i need some brown gussets and end binding leather. Think I may try to make them myself.

 

Mike