mike delta Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 Hi, I have just joined the forum and I am saying "hello". I have not yet purchased a concertina although I will do soon, once I can decide what I should go for. The trouble is some folks suggest English while others suggest Anglo. I want to play "some" Irish tunes but not to the exclusion of all else. I also like English tunes (particularly Northumbrian). So basically I want to play Airs, Jigs, Reels & Hornpipes but also to use a concertina to accompany while I sing. I find it all very confusing in terms of advantages and disadvantages between one type and another. By the way, I'm not new to music and have been playing pipes for many years (Uilleann pipes & Northumbrian Small pipes). Any suggestions? All help would be appreciated. Mike Delta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ken_Coles Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 Hello Mike, welcome aboard. The answer is "Any and all of the above" My colleagues will chime in with their favorite advice in a few minutes. Do not be frightened by them, they only look over excited, they are actually a friendly bunch, and once you get them started about concertinas they never stop. Ken Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lars Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 Welcome Mike, I had the same decision to make when starting. I chose the Anglo because I mostly want to play Irish music, etc. but I also chose it because it has a 'bouncy' quality to it due to the different notes on the push/pull. There's a nice swing to it that just comes natural....I've heard it said you can get that same effect with an English but I've never heard it done. There are some links to soundfiles of Cnet members playing Irish tunes on an English, see if you like the way it sounds. I tried an English out initially, same note on the push/pull, you can go much faster with certain passages obviously so there's an advantage there. You'll have twice the fingerwork though (appx.) per song with an English style but I think it may be easier to learn and play but not by too much? Once you get used to an Anglo however it's not so bad and since you already play one of the hardest instruments (Uilleann pipes) there is to learn, should be a walk in the park for you to learn Anglo. Either way, good luck and have fun! Lars Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Rose Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 Hi,I have just joined the forum and I am saying "hello". I have not yet purchased a concertina although I will do soon, once I can decide ..... Greetings Mike, I am also new. I have, however, chosen the anglo. I have a couple of very cheap concertinas, one english, and one anglo. Ive had the english for over a year now, and the anglo for only a couple months. For me, the anglo is without a doubt my preference. In fact, Ive just ordered a very nice anglo concertina and will pretty much exclusively play that. The anglo is more lively, the beat to me is more pronounced, and I picked up tunes faster. May I give a little unsolicited advice and say dont purchase too cheap of concertina. I made this mistake and I feel that it has limited my ability to learn, although on the other hand, I will really appreciate the new instrument when it arrives. Chris Rose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henk van Aalten Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 Hi, I have just joined the forum and I am saying "hello". I have not yet purchased a concertina although I will do soon, once I can decide ..... Greetings Mike, I am also new. I have, however, chosen the anglo. I have a couple of very cheap concertinas, one english, and one anglo. Ive had the english for over a year now, and the anglo for only a couple months. For me, the anglo is without a doubt my preference. In fact, Ive just ordered a very nice anglo concertina and will pretty much exclusively play that. The anglo is more lively, the beat to me is more pronounced, and I picked up tunes faster. May I give a little unsolicited advice and say dont purchase too cheap of concertina. I made this mistake and I feel that it has limited my ability to learn, although on the other hand, I will really appreciate the new instrument when it arrives. Chris Rose Hello Chris, It's good to meet you here as well! Welcome (Mike and Chris) to this forum. Mike, you should try both types to decide what's best for you. Try to locate a place or person(s) where you can try them. It will help if you let us know where you are situated. There might be some Anglo or English quite close! I agree with Chris to purchase good quality, but on the other hand he had the opportunity to try out both systems for a long period on his cheap Anglo and English. I wish you luck with your choice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jody Kruskal Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 English... Anglo.Any suggestions? Hi Mike and welcome, I agree with the advice so far. Stereotypes are made to be contradicted, but often have a kernel of truth in them. Of course, you can play any way you like on either instrument. However, to my ear, Anglo/English stereotypes go something like this: punchy / lyrical wild / dignified working class / upper class folk / classical foot stompin’ / toe tappin’ very wide dynamic range/ narrower dynamic range upper body / fingers visceral / intellectual good for dancing / good for listening harmonic / single line idiosyncratic / logical harder for reading notation / easier for reading notation comfortable in fewer keys / comfortable in more keys (key, as in F# major) Have I offended anyone yet? I am hardly an unbiased judge of such matters, I play Anglo, not English. Also, my comparisons above are hardly absolutes, I have heard some wild, stompin’, dance tunes played on English with lots of extra notes thrown in, but not often and not for a while. Whatever you decide, you are ahead of the game by knowing other instruments and having a body of tunes you like. Knowing what you want out of an instrument makes it much easier to play music that sounds the way you want it to. Enjoy! Jody http://cdbaby.com/cd/jodykruskal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Hersh Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 (edited) Welcome! I'd say that tunes are more commonly played on Anglo, song accompaniment on English, but there are many fine players who do the opposite quite effectively. Both Anglo and English have something weird about them--but they're different things. On an Anglo, each button plays two different notes, depending on whether you're pushing or pulling the bellows. I've known some people who've tried to learn Anglo who never managed to deal with that. On an English each button plays just one note, but the scale goes back and forth between the two hands, typically two notes on one hand followed by two on the other. I've known other people (including me!) who find that counter-intuitive and confusing. Your background on the pipes may make Anglo a better bet for you--the scale going up one hand and then the other is sort of parallel to the way an Anglo works. I had a background in woodwinds myself (clarinet, bassoon, recorder, tin whistle) and found it relatively easy to get started on Anglo. But I also played piano and that may have made a difference too, as the way you use your hands on a piano is even closer to that on an Anglo. On the other hand, there's Alistair Anderson as an example of a great player of small pipes and English concertina. In the end, your best bet may be to find a shop or group of players on your area where you can try out both systems and find out which comes more easily to you. Daniel Hi,I have just joined the forum and I am saying "hello". I have not yet purchased a concertina although I will do soon, once I can decide what I should go for. The trouble is some folks suggest English while others suggest Anglo. I want to play "some" Irish tunes but not to the exclusion of all else. I also like English tunes (particularly Northumbrian). So basically I want to play Airs, Jigs, Reels & Hornpipes but also to use a concertina to accompany while I sing. I find it all very confusing in terms of advantages and disadvantages between one type and another. By the way, I'm not new to music and have been playing pipes for many years (Uilleann pipes & Northumbrian Small pipes). Any suggestions? All help would be appreciated. Mike Delta. Edited February 25, 2006 by Daniel Hersh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul Read Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 I believe Frank Edgley played the Scottish pipes before he took up the anglo. It looks like that was a successful transition! Myself, I started on English after playing melodeon for a few years and found the transition hard. When I started on Anglo it was a much easier instrument (for me) to get some basic tunes out of. Whichever you choose, once the 'oddities' as described by Daniel have been mastered you will progress well as long as you PRACTICE (my weakness unfortunately). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Besser Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 Any suggestions?All help would be appreciated. I genuinely believe different systems work best for different people. For the life of me, I can't figure out how English works; the first time I picked up an ANglo, it felt comfortable and made sense. But I know people who have had the opposite reaction. My own guess: if you're more of an instinctive player, you'll probably like ANglo; if you're a person who does best with notation in front of you, you may prefer English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Timson Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 I believe Frank Edgley played the Scottish pipes before he took up the anglo. It looks like that was a successful transition! So did Jonathan Taylor before he took up the English, and he (like Henrik) is a spectacular player of Irish music on the English concertina. Chris PS to nail my own prejudices, I play English music on the anglo mostly, plus song accompaniment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 My own guess: if you're more of an instinctive player, you'll probably like ANglo; if you're a person who does best with notation in front of you, you may prefer English. Depends on what your "instincts" are. I instinctively took to the English. The first time I had one in my hands (at a party), it was only a few minutes until I was playing a Bulgarian song in 2-part harmony, though noone had told me a thing about the keyboard layout. My fingers just found a pattern that worked. It was more than a year later that I was loaned an instrument to learn on... and discovered that I'd played that song in the key of Eb. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Morse Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 And to throw in a completely different view, I started on English (a couple of years), then acquired an anglo and worked on that for a few months - and then got a duet! Before (and during the process) I'd played button accordion so one would think that an anglo would come easier to me, but I found it the most difficult of the three to learn. Seems odd? While the push/pull nature and fingering pattern was an easy cross-over for me, I was frustrated with the difficulty of playing with much accompaniment (I tend toward the "English" rather than Irish style of playing), and found playing in more than 3 keys very difficult and limiting. Of course there're folks here who've gone beyond that, but before I got that far I happened across a duet player who seemed to be able to do all that and more with ease. I can't remember the guy's name... a Morris guy I met on tour. Just a few moments in the pub between sets to give the me a basic how-to and I was off. Literally - within a few minutes I was playing tunes with simple accompaniment. Within half an hour I progressed about as much as I had on the anglo in a month's time. So I ordered a duet and have been at it ever since. Why not the English? The English was easy enough for me to learn (despite playing BA) but didn't seem to the the type of instrument *I* wanted. I like playing "full" tunes and pieces rather than a single melody line. Things with bass, chords, harmony, etc. My dream was a piano (or organ) that I weighed only a couple of pounds. I just couldn't play independent parts easily on the English. It's just not "set up" for that. Again, I know people who can, but the effort is prodigious compared to doing that sort of thing on a duet which is designed to do just that. So I wound up with a Hayden duet. Arguably the easiest duet to learn and transpose on. A fluke really as it was the first duet I came across. Since then I've heard amazing things on the other systems of duets as well - I might have been just as happy with another system but and quite entrenched now. The choice of which type of concertina is a very personal one. I suggest considering: 1. The type of music you want to play - as the different types of concertinas are designed to play certain types of music more easily. 2. The range of music you want to play - as most concertinas are limited in some way (key limited, note limited, pitch limited, speed limited, expression limited.... 3. Cost of the concertina - I say this as I feel that cost shouldn't be a factor. People often choose the type of concertina due to cost considerations which often results in the "wrong" type of concertina for them and slows down their learning, makes resale and getting another one a drag - overall, an unfun process. If music is one of your things, pamper yourself. Life is to be enjoyed! I'm not advocating a duet. This is just my story on how I wound up the the type of concertina which best suits what I play. You had said: I want to play "some" Irish tunes but not to the exclusion of all else. I also like English tunes (particularly Northumbrian). So basically I want to play Airs, Jigs, Reels & Hornpipes but also to use a concertina to accompany while I sing.which makes me think that the English system may be the most appropriate if you stick mainly to the melody, and getting a tenor English will give you the range for singing (so you can play acompaniment below your voice range which I feel "supports" singing better). Anglos can do all that but not as easily. A lot of hornpipes are in F and Bb. Some even in Eb. Not something easily done on C/G and G/D anglos. Also - Englishes can be played more smoothly and at a faster clip than anglos can be - which is more in keeping with the Northumbrian style. Duets might be a good choice for you particularly if you want a fuller sound and the ability to work in more accompaniment in your playing - though such full sound isn't the Northumbrian style. Englishes CAN fill in tunes well enough (though not to the extent a duet can), plus Englishes are able to play more quickly than duets. My suggestion is to give the English a serious shot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 So I wound up with a Hayden duet. Arguably the easiest duet to learn and transpose on. Shall we argue, then? (Just kidding. Rich knows I favor the Crane. But then, I don't have a Hayden.) A lot of hornpipes are in F and Bb. Some even in Eb. Not something easily done on C/G and G/D anglos. Maybe true in the American repertoire. Far less true in Irish. Also - Englishes can be played more smoothly and at a faster clip than anglos can be... IF you're comfortable with the English in the first place. Englishes CAN fill in tunes well enough (though not to the extent a duet can).... I disagree. The English can "fill in" harmonies as richly as a duet; it's just that the details of the harmonies and filling will usually be different. E.g., on the English many 4-note jazz chords can be played using only 2 fingers. It's the separation of treble and bass that's difficult on the English. So Mike, as others have said, there's not a single, simple answer, and a lot depends on how your own brain and body respond to the different types. It really would be best if you could find a way to try out the different ones before making up your mind. By the way, have you checked out the Recorded Tune Links Page to see how others use each type? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike delta Posted February 25, 2006 Author Share Posted February 25, 2006 Hello to you all. Thanks for the input and various preferences/advice et cetera. You have all certainly given me welcome advice and a few things to think about. One aspect I had not thought of... a "duet" concertina. Mmmm...... now there's a thought! The Music Room at Cleckheaton near Bradford (UK) is not a million miles away so I may try and make a vist one day next week. I can maybe try some of their stock. I'll let you know how I get on. Once again, many thanks but please don't close the thread yet as it has made for some interesting reading. Mike Delta. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henrik Müller Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 I believe Frank Edgley played the Scottish pipes before he took up the anglo. It looks like that was a successful transition! So did Jonathan Taylor before he took up the English, and he (like Henrik) is a spectacular player of Irish music on the English concertina. Chris PS to nail my own prejudices, I play English music on the anglo mostly, plus song accompaniment. - Humbly bowing, may I add my two cents: I started out on English (still on it) - by coincidence. I was attracted to both Irish music and the music of Northumberland. I found the English well suited to Northumbrian (Alistair Anderson being a stellar example) and hard for Irish - luckily, I didn't know that. So I struggled on, and slowly developed a bag of tricks that to a certain degree compensated for what the English (concertina ) has difficulties with in Irish music. But, again, it's a very, very personal thing: what makes sense to A, may well be utterly nonsense to B. Good luck! /Henrik Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 The Music Room at Cleckheaton near Bradford (UK) is not a million miles away so I may try and make a vist one day next week. I think Gill Noppen-Spacie is considered their resident concertina expert, but I also think she's not there every day. You should call them and try to arrange to be there when she will also be there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Rose Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 English... Anglo. Any suggestions? punchy / lyrical wild / dignified working class / upper class folk / classical foot stompin’ / toe tappin’ very wide dynamic range/ narrower dynamic range upper body / fingers visceral / intellectual good for dancing / good for listening harmonic / single line idiosyncratic / logical harder for reading notation / easier for reading notation comfortable in fewer keys / comfortable in more keys (key, as in F# major) Have I offended anyone yet? Enjoy! Jody http://cdbaby.com/cd/jodykruskal HA! Im not offended, I agree, and freely admit to gravitating toward the the "X" of "X/Y!" Lets hear it for foot stompin grog swilling hip shaking jams. Thanks Henk, its great to be involved, and nice meeting everyone. Chris Rose Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Richard Morse Posted February 25, 2006 Share Posted February 25, 2006 (edited) A lot of hornpipes are in F and Bb. Some even in Eb. Not something easily done on C/G and G/D anglos.Maybe true in the American repertoire. Far less true in Irish.Yes, but Mike said that he was particularly drawn toward Northumbrian tunes which (like American) have a considerably larger percentage of F and Bb hornpipes than does Irish the repertoire. Edited February 25, 2006 by Richard Morse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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