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Newb Fingering Question


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#1 lukmanohnz

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 11:05 AM

I'm a rank beginner working through the quite excellent tutorial book that was supplied with the Rochelle that I didn't purchase. You heard me. (See another thread on the forum to understand that first sentence.) The third and fourth measures of The Man In The Moon are:

Screen Shot 2018-03-18 at 8.15.14 AM.png

At this point in the tutorial the only c that's been covered is the push-1 on the right. But just fiddling around I discovered another one at draw-9 on the left. I'd been playing the above phrase draw-1L draw-1R push-1R draw-2R draw-1R push-1L. But if I substituted that draw-9L for the c in this phrase, all but the last note are played with draws. At the 'stately' (unhurried? leisurely? sluggish?) tempo I can manage for now, it doesn't really matter if I switch from draw to push for the c, but for the player who can manage to pull this tune off (see what I did there?) at a breezier tempo, would they typically play the first five notes all draws? Or is this just up to personal preference? Did I mention I love this thing?

 

P.S. I expect 'draw-9L' and 'push-1R' don't conform to any established concertina notation. Is there a correct (or better) way to write this out?

 

P.P.S. I've been entering a few of the exercises in the tutorial into TablEdit just so I can hear them played at a steady tempo (there are no audio files for the tutorial booklet). If any forum members are interested in having these files just let me know and I'm happy to send them. You'll need TablEdit or the viewer to open the files. TablEdit includes support for concertinas. (I'm quite certain it's easier to learn to read standard notation than to figure out how to read this concertina tab. At least that's my experience. I use TablEdit for guitar, mandolin and bass and I'm somewhat of a tab addict, but I'm afraid there's no hope for me learning concertina tablature.)



#2 lachenal74693

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 01:16 PM

Later - edited to keep it simple - 'twas far too complicated for a secondary matter...

 

I'm a rank beginner working...I use TablEdit for guitar, mandolin and bass and I'm somewhat of a tab addict, but I'm

afraid there's no hope for me learning concertina tablature.)

 

When I first started, I used Mick Bramichs system (http://mickbramich.c.../beginners.html), I then moved briefly to

Gary Coovers system (https://www.amazon.c...asap_bc?ie=UTF8), before finally settling on a  modified form of the

system on the Australian Bush Traditions site (http://www.bushtradi.../concertina.htm). In this system, your left-hand

buttons 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 are designated gL5, gL4, gL3, gL2, gL1 respectively?

 

Your short sample now looks like this in a score: 

 

 screenshot.1.jpg or this screenshot.2.jpg the 'R1' replaced with 'gL2^' if you use the G-row C.

 

Try it, it might suit you? It's not for everybody, but it works for me. You can modify it to suit yourself, and just write

the tabs in (or get fancy and use ABC like in my samples above)....

 

Roger


Edited by lachenal74693, 19 March 2018 - 10:26 AM.


#3 Mikefule

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 02:25 PM

I'm not familiar with the tune, and you've only shown  bars of it, and I don't know if you're playing "single note" or "harmonic" but, with those caveats:

 

If I were playing the notes you've shown:  A B C |  D B G with the C being the note that you get pushing the first button on the right hand on the C row then I'd almost certainly play:

 

A pull on C row left, B pull on C row right, C push on C row right |  D pull on C row right, B pull on C row right then *** G pull on accidental row***, left, 4th button up.

 

You would normally only use the C pull (4th button up, left hand pull, G row) if you needed a particular harmony - often the F major chord which is made up of F&A(C row)  and C (G row), all on the pull, often with the F bass (1st button, accidental row,. pull)



#4 Mjolnir

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 04:40 PM

All things being equal, I'd use the push C. It uses the right hand index finger, which is ever so slightly stronger than the left hand middle finger. I'd use the left hand draw, though, if I really wanted to play the phrase legato, as it can be hard to play smoothly across a bellows change. So there are definitely reasons you might prefer some fingerings to others, but there's also going to be a fair degree of personal preference.

#5 lukmanohnz

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Posted 18 March 2018 - 11:54 PM

This is all helpful information - thank you!

#6 gcoover

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Posted 19 March 2018 - 03:08 PM

Michael, I'm not familiar with the tab program you're using, but I would strongly suggest notating things as simply as possible. There's often a tendency to overthink all the details (I'm an engineer by trade so certainly know all about that), but in the end you want something easy to notate and read quickly without a lot of clutter.

 

Using too many identifiers (for note, finger, direction) might actually slow down your progress - always keep in mind that any type of tab is just a crutch to help your fingers quickly know where to be. It's best for tunes you're learning or to record your arrangements. 

 

As to finding the same note on different buttons - welcome to the joys and frustrations of the Anglo! Because of the different push and pull combinations, you'll find the rhythm can be very different depending on which buttons you select. Sometimes you want legato, sometimes more bouncy, and sometimes you want to emphasize downbeats and other significant accents. I agree with Jody Kruskal that it's good to learn all the various ways of playing the same melody, then you can experiment and interchange to make the tune more interesting. Attached is a great example of this (a line overhead indicates "pull"). Exact same notes, but notice how different it feels.

 

 

Gary

 

 

 

Attached Thumbnails

  • 6-2-6-10.JPG


#7 Mikefule

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Posted 19 March 2018 - 04:39 PM

Michael,

 

it's good to learn all the various ways of playing the same melody, then you can experiment and interchange to make the tune more interesting. 

 

 

 

1)  For clarity: Michael is the original poster, not me, although I'm also a Michael.

 

2)  It is good to learn various ways of playing a melody, but if you want to play in the harmonic style, some of the routes through the maze will offer either more or fewer harmonic opportunities.

 

Also, just as an interesting but pointless exercise,if you want to play the ordinary G major scale (on a GD 30b) going up one octave, there are 288 viable fingering patterns.  Even a simple 8 bar tune with 4 notes per bar would have a huge number of permutations, depending on which notes it featured.  I put it to the jury that learning them all might be only for those with the most time on their hands.  :D

 

 

G major scale on a 30b G/D Anglo:

G A B F# G each appear twice

C appears once

D and E each appear 3 times

2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 2 x 3 x 3 = 288.



#8 lukmanohnz

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Posted 19 March 2018 - 11:44 PM

Michael, I'm not familiar with the tab program you're using, but I would strongly suggest notating things as simply as possible. There's often a tendency to overthink all the details (I'm an engineer by trade so certainly know all about that), but in the end you want something easy to notate and read quickly without a lot of clutter.
 
Using too many identifiers (for note, finger, direction) might actually slow down your progress - always keep in mind that any type of tab is just a crutch to help your fingers quickly know where to be. It's best for tunes you're learning or to record your arrangements. 
 
As to finding the same note on different buttons - welcome to the joys and frustrations of the Anglo! Because of the different push and pull combinations, you'll find the rhythm can be very different depending on which buttons you select. Sometimes you want legato, sometimes more bouncy, and sometimes you want to emphasize downbeats and other significant accents. I agree with Jody Kruskal that it's good to learn all the various ways of playing the same melody, then you can experiment and interchange to make the tune more interesting. Attached is a great example of this (a line overhead indicates "pull"). Exact same notes, but notice how different it feels.
 
 
Gary

Thank you for your insights Gary! I presume you are the Gary Coover who has authored several books of study on the concertina. I have purchased your book on playing in the harmonic style and am excited to begin working through it once I’ve finished the beginner’s book I received with my Minstrel.

#9 wes

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Posted 21 March 2018 - 03:42 AM

It's all to your own personal liking as whether the tune is legato or bouncing. If you really like legato, you have the wrong instrument for that style. Anglo was designed for the dance rhythm of folk music...or so I've heard. As you develope, you should explore the empty spaces between the notes. Some of the older Irish style players "along the row" are masters at this. Some are younger. Listen to Cormac Begley. There's a few of him on the innertube. His cd is superb. Pick a style you like and work on it. It's a wonderful journey.

#10 Mjolnir

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Posted 21 March 2018 - 12:11 PM

I'd say that trying to play an Anglo legato is no crazier than trying to use an Anglo to play Irish fiddle tunes in D and A. My understanding is that it was mainly designed to be cheap and easy to play. Of course now they're incredibly expensive, but that just adds to their absurdity, and it's an absurdity that I kind of love. Trying to work around the limitations of the instrument to do things that it was never designed to do is part of what makes it so fun to play.


Edited by Mjolnir, 21 March 2018 - 12:11 PM.


#11 Anglo-Irishman

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Posted 21 March 2018 - 03:31 PM

Of course you can play an Anglo legato. At first, the push-pull thing makes it jerky (not bouncy!), but as your bellows control improves and your arms get stronger and develop more feel for the music, legato is doable. And it's not just a matter of finding the alternative fingerings that give you a phrase all on the press or all on the draw. A soft bellows-direction change can do the trick.

 

Cheers,

John



#12 Mikefule

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Posted 21 March 2018 - 04:28 PM

Given the right tune, it is possible to play 2 or even 4 bar phrases all in one bellows direction if you're desperately in search of legato on an Anglo.

 

However, my personal view is that the Anglo is optimised for staccato with occasional bars of legato, rather than being a legato instrument.  The push pull is the heart of the instrument and it is better to work with it than against it.

 

I've heard an English played to sound like an Anglo, and vice versa.  Neat party trick, but somehow missing the point.  However, I am only describing my personal feelings, not saying what someone else should or should not do.



#13 LateToTheGame

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Posted 23 March 2018 - 02:34 PM

 For slow play-- Vibrato can be achieved for slow airs by gently waving the fingers of the hand opposite to hand keying the note you are sounding. (Almost as if you were secretly waving to a friend across the room). It is a very subtle move that doesn't actually move the bellows but rather vibrates them.  You are not working the whole hand, just the fingers.   It is hard to explain.  I have watched the move for years before I picked up the concertina, and it makes a huge difference for slow play.  Someone else may be able to explain this more clearly.

 

As for the rest of the question, learning the notes...  Play a note as many ways as possible as you teach yourself the instrument.  As you add chords and ornaments you will want to be able to access some notes on the push or the pull or in a line or geometrically.  I found using my g row b to be invaluable when I hit tunes with c#s for example.  Tunes I initially played linearly I  now often playing "across the rows" because I need the flexibility for the next note.





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