michael sam wild Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 I love playing nice Irish reels and recently timed quite a few musicians who I really like. The beats per minute ranged from about 96 to 102 with a mean about 98. My resting heartbeat is about 70 and after a brisk walk uphill it is about 100 ( I'm 70 so not as fit as I was) So is that about a nice dancing speed? I have noticed over the years that session musicians are speeding up. I prefer to listen to older traditional players like Tom Carey, Tommy Mc Carthy etc. Is that becase they grew up playing for dancers. Incidentally I found the 90s set dance 'revival' led to a demand for more speed from musicians. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted July 13, 2010 Author Share Posted July 13, 2010 This may help or infuriate! http://www.seventhstring.com/metronome/metronome.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaryK Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 This may help or infuriate! http://www.seventhstring.com/metronome/metronome.html That's an interesting site. I did a little test which involved pressing the "T" tempo key while humming a tune to myself. I was suprised to find that while I thought I was keeping a steady beat of about 112 BPM the tempo measured by the software varied from about 108-116. Don't know if this is real, that is, am I unable to keep a precise BPM for more than a bar or two; or, does this reflect varying connection speeds every few seconds between my keyboard and the website? I'd like to see others try this and let us know if they get the same results. In my case, I suspect its that I am a very imperfect human metronome, and that slight variations in BPM are due to my own inability to robotically keep the beat. I would make a very poor drummer I suspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Stein Posted July 13, 2010 Share Posted July 13, 2010 A group I currently play in is in the process of recording. The engineer made us slow down some of our pieces from 130 BPM to 116 and on one tune from 128 to 112. It actually was very difficult to do initially but once recorded and played back did sound signifigantly more clear; the instruments and harmonies more delineated and easier to listen to. It showed how we speed up in performace and seem to maintain that pace throughout. rss Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Takayuki YAGI Posted July 14, 2010 Share Posted July 14, 2010 Just FYI... In the book "Set Dances of Ireland: Tradition & Evolution" (Larry Lynch), http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0962336602 many set dances are presented with tune lists with dancing speed remembered by local people. for example: The Caledonian Set (Crusheen, Quin, Dysart O'Dea, Spancil Hill, Barefield, Ennis, Kilnamona, Inagh, Co. Clare) According to Joe McNamara the dancing speed of the music at two beats per measure used to be: reels, 98 beats per minute; jigs, 98 beats per minute; hornpipes, 72 beats per minute. The dancing speed of the music at two beats per measure for competition and exhibition today is much faster: reels, 116 beats per minute; jigs, 125 beats per minute; hornpipes, 105 beats per minute. The Caledonian Set (Lakyle, Labasheeda, Kilmurry McMahon, Creegh, Kilkee, Kilbaha, Co. Clare) According to Dan Fuery the dancing speed of the music at two beats per measure used to be: reels, 116 beats per minute; jigs, 112 beats per minute; hornpipes, 104 beats per minute. The dancing speed of the music at two beats per measure for competition and exhibition today is much faster: reels, 129 beats per minute; jigs, 131 beats per minute; hornpipes, 111 beats per minute. And in the accompaniment music materials for that book (4 tapes and 1 CD were sold separately if memory serves), we can hear Tommy McCarthy playing concertina. Cheers, -- Taka Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted July 14, 2010 Author Share Posted July 14, 2010 That quote is a bit confusing as 'measure' is what they call a bar in the US. I take reels to have 4 crotchets (1/4 notes ) per bar, or more usually 8 quavers (1/8 notes per bar.) therefore 4 beats per measure But when tapping my feet to a lilted reel I followed the metronome and two beats of the metronome to the bar! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted July 15, 2010 Share Posted July 15, 2010 That quote is a bit confusing as 'measure' is what they call a bar in the US. We use both terms pretty much interchangeably, with "measure" being a somewhat more formal term, though a "bar" is also a place to get drinks. I take reels to have 4 crotchets (1/4 notes ) per bar, or more usually 8 quavers (1/8 notes per bar.) therefore 4 beats per measure But when tapping my feet to a lilted reel I followed the metronome and two beats of the metronome to the bar! Ah, that's another discussion entirely. Different people or groups have different conventions for notating reels and hornpipes. I learned that reels should be notated in 2 and hornpipes in 4, but others do it the reverse. Not gonna bother debating it now... especially since which convention is used doesn't affect the way I play tunes when I read them. That's something I've learned from listening. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_boveri Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 (edited) That quote is a bit confusing as 'measure' is what they call a bar in the US. I take reels to have 4 crotchets (1/4 notes ) per bar, or more usually 8 quavers (1/8 notes per bar.) therefore 4 beats per measure But when tapping my feet to a lilted reel I followed the metronome and two beats of the metronome to the bar! i live in the states, and have always heard it called a "measure," i.e. the denominator's number of note lengths delineated in the numerator of the time signature (bet you never heard it explained that way!). just kidding... the notes between two BAR LINES of sheet music are a measure. that is perhaps why some people call it a bar. as far as writing out irish music... here's the source of the confusion: irish musicians aren't particularly picky, cuz they rely on their ear, and use sheet music to only get the basic shape of the tune. technically, reels should be written in cut time. very rarely do people do this. it is just easier to write 4/4 and forget about it. hornpipes have traditionally been written in 4/4, with dotted 8ths and 16ths. however, this was only shorthand as well, as the time was not rhythmically accurate. nowadays, most people i know just write out hornpipes in 4/4 without making anything dotted. they just write hornpipe at the top of the page. there's a problem here, as well! the reason nobody EVER writes cut time when doing a hornpipe is that they used to actually play them with 4 beats a measure. now they only play them with 2 (i.e. cut time). it's just a different rhythmic emphasis in cut time than reels (and usually a slower tempo). i know this because one day with a lesson with the fiddler james kelly, he caught me tapping my feet 4 times a measure. he explained to me that the way people count hornpipes has changed (it is likely his father john kelly played them with 4 beats a measure). so there you have it... reels are sometimes written in cut time, and technically should be. hornpipes are never written in cut time, but technically should be. the more meticulous transcribers will write all reels in cut time and all hornpipes in 4/4, which means that it's still wrong, but then easier to know the INTENDED rhythm (but not time signature) of the piece. and for more fun, you have slides which are written in 12/8. some people count them in 2 and some people count them in 4 (by "count them in" i mean the same way people count jigs in 2 and reels in 2). then there are mazurkas, which are in 3/4, which are totally different than waltzes, which are in 3/4. most people count waltzes in 1, but mazurkas in 3 (or at least whenever i try to count a mazurka in 1 i end up putting the downbeat on the upbeat!). then there are polkas, which are straightforward, until you ask someone "how do you play them?" the best answer i ever got to that question was at a workshop (again by james kelly), when i asked how to play polkas? the best he could come up with was, "how you dance to them." Edited July 16, 2010 by david_boveri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted July 16, 2010 Author Share Posted July 16, 2010 Thanks David, why is it called 'cut' time ? I notice most experienced players I play with tap 2 to the bar and most do tap their feet. Once on the first 1/8 th note ( quaver)and then on the 5th. The emphasis internally varies Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted July 16, 2010 Share Posted July 16, 2010 there's a problem here, as well! the reason nobody EVER writes cut time when doing a hornpipe is that they used to actually play them with 4 beats a measure. now they only play them with 2 (i.e. cut time). it's just a different rhythmic emphasis in cut time than reels (and usually a slower tempo). i know this because one day with a lesson with the fiddler james kelly, he caught me tapping my feet 4 times a measure. he explained to me that the way people count hornpipes has changed (it is likely his father john kelly played them with 4 beats a measure). I guess I'm old-fashioned. I still play hornpipes 4 beats to the bar/measure, BUT -- and this is important! -- the four beats don't all receive the same emphasis. Usually, beat 1 is strongest and beat 3 is slightly weaker, with beats 2 and 4 being weaker still but about equal to each other. But Irish music (and music in general) is not mechanically rigid. Individual notes may be stretched or compressed, or be given different emphasis, according to what the player feels at the moment (or according to the movement of the dancers, if playing for dancing). In my experience, the individual beats -- whether one counts 2 or 4 to the measure -- are rarely all the same length, but the measures are. So I think it really makes more sense to speak of the number of measures per minute, rather than the number of beats per minute (if you're going to bother with counting them in the first place, rather than getting a feel for tempos by listening to other players). However, I have no illusions about changing standard practice, so I have better things to do with my time than to try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
david_boveri Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 there's a problem here, as well! the reason nobody EVER writes cut time when doing a hornpipe is that they used to actually play them with 4 beats a measure. now they only play them with 2 (i.e. cut time). it's just a different rhythmic emphasis in cut time than reels (and usually a slower tempo). i know this because one day with a lesson with the fiddler james kelly, he caught me tapping my feet 4 times a measure. he explained to me that the way people count hornpipes has changed (it is likely his father john kelly played them with 4 beats a measure). I guess I'm old-fashioned. I still play hornpipes 4 beats to the bar/measure, BUT -- and this is important! -- the four beats don't all receive the same emphasis. Usually, beat 1 is strongest and beat 3 is slightly weaker, with beats 2 and 4 being weaker still but about equal to each other. But Irish music (and music in general) is not mechanically rigid. Individual notes may be stretched or compressed, or be given different emphasis, according to what the player feels at the moment (or according to the movement of the dancers, if playing for dancing). In my experience, the individual beats -- whether one counts 2 or 4 to the measure -- are rarely all the same length, but the measures are. So I think it really makes more sense to speak of the number of measures per minute, rather than the number of beats per minute (if you're going to bother with counting them in the first place, rather than getting a feel for tempos by listening to other players). However, I have no illusions about changing standard practice, so I have better things to do with my time than to try. i disagree. i think the beat in dance music is very rigid. the beat continues no matter what, steady, like the sound of a train on a track. the melody floats on top of the beat, meeting it directly at times, and other times toying with it, but nevertheless the beat remains. you can play ahead of the beat, or behind the beat, and of course on the beat, but the beat still remains unchanged! unless of course the tempo speeds up or slows down... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JimLucas Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 But Irish music (and music in general) is not mechanically rigid. Individual notes may be stretched or compressed, or be given different emphasis, according to what the player feels at the moment (or according to the movement of the dancers, if playing for dancing). In my experience, the individual beats -- whether one counts 2 or 4 to the measure -- are rarely all the same length, but the measures are. So I think it really makes more sense to speak of the number of measures per minute, rather than the number of beats per minute (if you're going to bother with counting them in the first place, rather than getting a feel for tempos by listening to other players). However, I have no illusions about changing standard practice, so I have better things to do with my time than to try. i disagree. i think the beat in dance music is very rigid. the beat continues no matter what, steady, like the sound of a train on a track. the melody floats on top of the beat, meeting it directly at times, and other times toying with it, but nevertheless the beat remains. you can play ahead of the beat, or behind the beat, and of course on the beat, but the beat still remains unchanged! unless of course the tempo speeds up or slows down... I don't disagree. I think we just have two different ways of viewing/describing the same phenomenon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Barnert Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 i live in the states, and have always heard it called a "measure," i.e. the denominator's number of note lengths delineated in the numerator of the time signature (bet you never heard it explained that way!). just kidding... the notes between two BAR LINES of sheet music are a measure. that is perhaps why some people call it a bar. I also live in the states and hear both "bar" and "measure" commonly. Have you not heard of a 32-bar tune? Or that most American of genres, the 12-bar blues? Nobody would ever call it "12-measure blues"! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Drinkwater Posted July 17, 2010 Share Posted July 17, 2010 Thanks David, why is it called 'cut' time ? there's a problem here, as well! the reason nobody EVER writes cut time when doing a hornpipe is that they used to actually play them with 4 beats a measure. now they only play them with 2 (i.e. cut time). it's just a different rhythmic emphasis in cut time than reels (and usually a slower tempo). i know this because one day with a lesson with the fiddler james kelly, he caught me tapping my feet 4 times a measure. he explained to me that the way people count hornpipes has changed (it is likely his father john kelly played them with 4 beats a measure). Cut time, or “cut common time,” is a 4/4 time signature that’s been rhythmically “cut” to manipulate rhythm and/or tempo. Cut time can be written as 2/2, or as a C-shaped symbol with a vertical slash. It is a common musical term with slightly various meanings among different musicians. It is the standard symbol in written Western music indicating alla breve (twice as fast) i.e., the beat is a minim (half note). But to classical musicians, this symbol will mean "having a feeling of 2 beats per bar" (as opposed to 4 which is called common time) and/or that the tempo (pacing) of the music is generally fast and flowing. While jazz musicians say "cut time" or "half time" when they want the music to suddenly go twice as fast! Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
michael sam wild Posted July 19, 2010 Author Share Posted July 19, 2010 Thanks Chris that was helpful. By the way, at The Bradfiedl Weekend yesterday, Roger Digby did a short workshop in the barn about putting the dance back into dance music, which session playing is in danger of losing. A very stimulating talk. He differentiated between beat and how we actually play with lift or rhythm and it was apparent as we played to get people dancing that there is a lot more too it than a metronomic beat. Those who play in dance bands know that but it was good to examine it and do a bit of analysis together. I hope Roger will elaborate somewhere as his 'gadfly' approach had the desired effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azalin Posted July 19, 2010 Share Posted July 19, 2010 Interesting, it seems my favorite reel playing speed would be around 94 bps for a reel, and 100 bps for a jig... I think it's relatively slow compared to the average. I lose total interest in irish music when it goes beyond 130 bps, but it's all just a matter of taste. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Barnert Posted July 20, 2010 Share Posted July 20, 2010 (edited) Cut time, or “cut common time,” is a 4/4 time signature that’s been rhythmically “cut” to manipulate rhythm and/or tempo. Cut time can be written as 2/2, or as a C-shaped symbol with a vertical slash. It is a common musical term with slightly various meanings among different musicians. It is the standard symbol in written Western music indicating alla breve (twice as fast) i.e., the beat is a minim (half note). But to classical musicians, this symbol will mean "having a feeling of 2 beats per bar" (as opposed to 4 which is called common time) and/or that the tempo (pacing) of the music is generally fast and flowing. While jazz musicians say "cut time" or "half time" when they want the music to suddenly go twice as fast! It's really just a way to notate music that "should" be in 2/4 but without so many beams and flags. Quarter notes (crotchets) are easier to write and read than eight notes (quavers), which in turn are easier than sixteenth notes (semi-quavers), and so on. So although reels and marches sound just like they are in 2/4, they are often written in 2/2 or cut time for typographical simplicity. [edited for typo] Edited July 20, 2010 by David Barnert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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