Vertical Intervals On The Ec

[bellowbelle]

Hmm, I feel like posting a note. So...here's an excerpt from my 'comments' about a composition I wrote for EC. Even if you don't bother looking at the composition, this may be of interest:

 

 

On the English concertina, every interval formed by playing any one button with the button directly above it is an interval of a fifth -- EXCEPT for those of the following three positions formed on the right hand's side, and the 'same,' but an octave higher, on the left hand's side:

 

 

The 'B' button with the 'F' button above it (interval is +4)

The 'Bb' button with the 'F#' button above it (interval is m6)

The 'Eb' button with the 'Ab' button above it (interval is P4)

 

Hmmm!

[JimLucas]

The 'B' button with the 'F' button above it (interval is +4)

No deep mystery here. That's how a diatonic scale works.

I would call the interval a diminshed fifth, though, rather than an augmented fourth.

 

The 'Bb' button with the 'F#' button above it (interval is m6)

This is just an artifact of putting on the button next to each natural note its "most common" accidental, rather than making them all flats or all sharps.

I'd call this one an augmented fifth, rather than a diminished -- or minor -- sixth.

If the notes in the outer rows were all the flats (including Cb and Fb) or the sharps (including B# and E#) of their corresponding naturals, then this interval would also be a diminished fifth, rather than an augmented one.

 

The 'Eb' button with the 'Ab' button above it (interval is P4)

But this one just isn't true, not on any of my English concertinas. Above the Eb is Bb (a fifth), not Ab.

 

So the way I see it, all the intervals are fifths, but two (and only 2 out of 12) of those fifths are modified -- one increased a half step and the other decreased the same amount -- by the "irregular" bases of Western music.

 

Music is about people, and people aren't simple. It's a wonder our music is as regular as it is.

[bellowbelle]

The 'Eb' button with the 'Ab' button above it (interval is P4)

But this one just isn't true, not on any of my English concertinas. Above the Eb is Bb (a fifth), not Ab.

 

Okay...I'm going to get back to this one later, but just for a quick answer re the 'not true' interval ...

 

here's a PDF file that shows what my English system is, and there's the Ab above the Eb, you'll see....though, there's also the spot with the Eb above the Ab. I promise you that I'll even double-check this....

 

Maybe I don't label the buttons the way you do...don't know...

 

Please disregard my sig on the PDF, I no longer have that website but I can't yet make a new PDF. Just putting this here for this post....I shall return...!

[JimLucas]

Maybe I don't label the buttons the way you do...don't know...

That's it. That -- and the early hour here in Denmark -- led to my error.

... And it is my error.

 

You have labelled all the accidentals as flats, whereas I think of some of them as sharps (a view that was clearly shared by Wheatstone). I carelessly didn't check every one of the 12 "vertical" intervals, and the one you're calling Eb/Ab, I would call D#/Ab. Yes, it's a fourth (or a doubly diminished fifth, but that's stretching a point), and can be explained in the same way as the Bb/F# interval. (Incidentally, if the accidentals were all the flats or all the sharps of their neighboring naturals, this interval would turn into a standard fifth.)

 

I find your "using flats" PDF to be confusing, as it obscures the simplicity of the design behind the accidentals. The reasoning behind the adjacent-note pairings of C/Db, F/Gb, G/Ab, and D/Eb isn't immediately obvious, but when they're expressed as C/C#, F/F#, G/G#, and D/D# it should jump right out at you.

 

In fact, on instruments which aren't in equal temperament, the C/Db, etc. designations are incorrect, since C# and Db aren't the same.

[bellowbelle]

Hmm...let's see if I can think more clearly now that it's morning, here.

 

I hesitate a bit to discuss singing and the voice, because I don't really do much of it anymore and there are surely members here who are much more trained and informed than I am. But....

 

Anyway...first of all, I seem to recall a conversation I had with a voice teacher (or, I dreamed it up?), and she pointed out that someone memorizing the sounds of intervals as a vocalist rather than, say, a jazz piano player, is likely to choose different names for the intervals.

 

For example, for the singer, at least the way I fell into things, there are the basic intervals and then the variations of these. Since 'La,' the 'A' in the C-major scale -- the sixth -- is important, the next step in shifting the La is to make it minor (it occurs naturally in the Do-Re-Mi-etc. scale as a major). So, there's the m6, or the minor sixth. It has a domain. You could call it a +5 (augmented fifth), but, at least at my voice lessons, the fifth was left to be 'perfect,' and, of course, the P5 (fifth) is not called 'minor.'

 

Oh...another thing...at least in singing, there is often a difference assigned to whether you are ascending or descending with the solfeggio...THIS also has influenced how I 'call' an interval or a tone. (Too hard to really explain that fully, right now, though.)

 

So...maybe the above gives a bit of an idea of my viewpoint....I developed my own personal references, and...well, I guess I'm sticking to them! My concertina shall have to think like a voice, I guess.

 

As for fourths (P4)...they're also left to be 'perfect,' of course...and, it seems that the choice of calling it either +4 (tritone, etc.) or b5 (diminished fifth, flat five, etc.) is a bit more open than the situation with the +5/m6.

 

IS THE GLASS HALF EMPTY OR HALF FULL? -- Seems like one of those types of questions, to me! So, I go with 'Half Full,' I guess, and I call the mid-point of the scale the tritone, the +4. (Though, in most actual, written notation, I do choose, instead, to call it a b5.)

~~~~~ ~~~~~ ~~~~~

 

AS FOR MY PDF -- I did also make one using all sharps, on the same type of paper (using 'Graph Paper Printer,' which I no longer have). I like the option of thinking in sharps OR flats, depending on various....reference points, I guess. Hmm, as far as the layout of the graph goes, I thought they were useful..clear enough.

 

I do mix sharps and flats. Personal choice. I try to be nice, though, when writing out some music and see that it's done the way most people would want to see it, heheh!

 

I don't know if this will make sense to anyone, but, I always 'think in the key of C,' regardless of what the REAL key is -- for instance, I only recently figured out that one of my compositions (Squirrelybird) is actually in the key of F#, because I'd written it all out in C, with all the sharps/flats/naturals added. So, I posted it online in the key of F#. Yet, another thing I wrote, 'Waltzing Turkey,' though it goes through a few different keys, probably -- I wrote it out in C and left it in C -- it seems best that way.

 

Anyway, in order of favorites, 'MY' chromatic scale goes like this:

C, C#, D, Eb, E, F, F#, G, Ab, A, Bb, B, C.

 

Gets fun, huh....I think music is like a language with several dialects!

 

Well...I could say more, but, I've got to go outside and rake leaves. They are even more plentiful than my supply of words, today...

 

In fact, on instruments which aren't in equal temperament, the C/Db, etc. designations are incorrect, since C# and Db aren't the same.

 

That's true...but, I don't really think I must consider that, often, on my concertina, not practically speaking.

 

Must rake, rake, rake....

[JimLucas]

I developed my own personal references, and...well, I guess I'm sticking to them!

Fair enough, as long as I don't have to.

Reading what you've written, I begin to see your "system", though to me it's rather like pre-Copernican astronomy.

 

My concertina shall have to think like a voice, I guess.

No, not like "a voice", but like you. My voice "thinks" very differently.

 

But what name is "best" for a particular note or interval depends on the context. I might well use the term "minor sixth" or "diminished sixth" for an interval in a particular song, but in the context of explaining "vertical relations" in the concertina layout, "augmented fifth" seems more informative.

 

Well, you seem to have many musical ideas or "concepts" that in my experience are quite non-standard. E.g., you don't seem to relate to the usual concept of "key". Being "in" a particular key isn't a matter of what sharps or flats you choose to put at the beginning of a staff, but a matter of where the tune begins and ends and what chords sound correct at various points in the tune. And it's these characteristics of what the music sounds like that "tell" which sharps or flats "should" be put into the key signature. It's those characteristics which told that Squirrelybird was really in F#.

 

In fact, on instruments which aren't in equal temperament, the C/Db, etc. designations are incorrect, since C# and Db aren't the same.

That's true...but, I don't really think I must consider that, often, on my concertina, not practically speaking.

I knew I should have used Eb/D# for my example, instead. They're both on the instrument, but on different sides. Call them both Eb if you want, but then if you use the wrong "Eb" in a Bb scale, you'll lose the pattern of alternating ends of the instrument. And that's only one reason why it's useful to think of the other one -- the one next to the D -- as D#.

 

Well, you're welcome to think of things in what ever way you like, but I hope it doesn't cause you to miss useful patterns and relationships.

 

Meanwhile, I hope you enjoyed raking leaves.

... Waitaminit! ....... In spring??

[bellowbelle]

Reading what you've written, I begin to see your "system", though to me it's rather like pre-Copernican astronomy.

 

Hmm, well, I've just read that Ptolemy's system was actually more accurate than that of Copernicus, and it wasn't until Kepler came along that the pre-Copernican system was improved upon. See:http://space.about.com/cs/astronomerbios/a/ptolemybio.htm

 

Of course, I never would have bothered to look that up, if you didn't mention it, so...thanks, I guess!

 

But what name is "best" for a particular note or interval depends on the context. 

Yes...though, I think perhaps, then, I really am more Ptolemaic....I am more earth-centered than sun-centered, I guess. More subjective than objective, maybe...I don't know that this is bad, though. (And, some well-esteemed ancient systems still survive today....Vedic Astrology, though I know little about it, I know is earth-centered, not sun-centered, like western astrology.)

 

Well, you seem to have many musical ideas or "concepts" that in my experience are quite non-standard.  E.g., you don't seem to relate to the usual concept of "key".  Being "in" a particular key isn't a matter of what sharps or flats you choose to put at the beginning of a staff, but a matter of where the tune begins and ends and what chords sound correct at various points in the tune. 

 

Exactly! I DO understand/relate to the usual concept of 'key,' and I don't mean that I write everything in 'C.' But....maybe what I mean is that I throw in a bit of strange modulation at times, so, I conveniently relate it all to basic 'C' for starters....hmm, that could be it.

 

I knew I should have used Eb/D# for my example, instead.    They're both on the instrument, but on different sides.  Call them both Eb if you want, but then if you use the wrong "Eb" in a Bb scale, you'll lose the pattern of alternating ends of the instrument.  And that's only one reason why it's useful to think of the other one -- the one next to the D -- as D#. 

 

That's a very good point. I was mainly considering just 'sound,' not placement on the keyboard, but...of course, that should be considered.

 

Well, you're welcome to think of things in what ever way you like, but I hope it doesn't cause you to miss useful patterns and relationships.

 

Nope...I won't miss those...I shall be charting my 'chord constellations' on my graph paper, etc....and thinking of the buttons as stars in the sky....

 

Meanwhile, I hope you enjoyed raking leaves.

... Waitaminit! ....... In spring?? 

I don't rake them in the fall. (Only sun-centered types do that.) They make good ground-cover, I think, for the winter.

[BruceB]

>>AS FOR MY PDF -- I did also make one using all sharps, on the same type of paper (using 'Graph Paper Printer,' which I no longer have). I like the option of thinking in sharps OR flats<<

 

Wendy,

It's fine to look at the english keyboard layout any way you prefer, but when talking about it in a public forum I think it's important to use the standard that been in place since the early days of the concertina, which is to call the accidental next to d d sharp, not e flat, g sharp next to g, not A flat, b flat next to b, etc for all the notes. I have an excellent chart taken from Regondi's 1857 New Method for the Concertina, which lists the notes this way, and every other chart I've ever seen is also this way. It's confusing when you do it a different way, and it also makes it more difficult to see the beautiful logic of the system. I had no idea at first what you were talking about in your first post in this thread.

bruce boysen

[bellowbelle]

It's fine to look at the english keyboard layout any way you prefer, but when talking about it in a public forum I think

....I think there's not much point, then!

[bellowbelle]

I had no idea at first what you were talking about in your first post in this thread.

Okay....sorry about that, Bruce (and Jim, too)! I was confused until now about the issue, here.

 

I see why my use of the Eb instead of D# (in my initial observation of the intervals) would be very confusing to someone.

 

I also see that the PDF could be confusing, but that wasn't really the main issue, anyway....

 

I'll adjust my notes...though, my observations are still correct, sound-wise!

Edited May 7, 2004 by bellowbelle

[JimLucas]

I'll adjust my notes...though, my observations are still correct, sound-wise!

Sound research is based on sound observations.

[John Nixon]

Hi Friends,

I felt compelled to add to this thread and hope that KEN will be able to publish the 2-charts that I sent him some time ago. Although the charts are nothing new, they show very clearly not only the layout of L & R keyboards for the English STANDARD 48 key Treble & Baritone Concertinas ,but also the relationship with the written music. Good luck, JOHN NIXON.

[Ken_Coles]

John has been very patient! They are at the top of the pile, and I have only two more weeks of school, so very soon now.

 

The Assistant Gardener