Keeping The Prices High

[Gilly]

A little bird told me that a certain concertina dealer bids for concertinas on ebay that he has no intentions of buying and doesn't even want. Just to keep the prices high. This made my blood boil. Am i just being naive, or does it make anyone else cross?

I would love a better machine but i haven't got a snowball's chance in hell when the dealers fix the price or have i? sorry i just wanted to blow off some steam

[Dana Johnson]

A little bird told me that a certain concertina dealer bids for concertinas on ebay that he has no intentions of buying and doesn't even want. Just to keep the prices high. This made my blood boil. Am i just being naive, or does it make anyone else cross?

I would love a better machine but i haven't got a snowball's chance in hell when the dealers fix the price or have i? sorry i just wanted to blow off some steam

You have my sympathies! but either the dealer you refer to ends up buying the concertina he doesn't want or somebody else is willing to pay more and sets the price. I know from experience that auction sites like E-Bay tend to get people to pay more for things than they would if they weren't bidding against other people, and quit using E-bay for anything anybody else really wanted. But E-Bay is not the only source for good concertinas. There ARE a LIMITED NUMBER of them to go around and that is what has pushed the price up.

 

I wish you great luck and good fortune in finding a concertina that suits your needs. Hang in there and do your best in a world where not everybody has the interests of others in mind. You may not find a real deal (you just might) but remember, the big name concertinas of the last century aren't always what they are cracked up to be. There are some good makers (my books are (temporarily I hope) closed) that are making fine instruments now. I'm a great supporter of people making great instruments for people like yourself. find someone you like, get on a list and start saving. You would be surprised at how little you may have to go without to have enough saved by the time your box is finished.

Dana

[Christian Husmann]

A little bird told me that a certain concertina dealer bids for concertinas on ebay that he has no intentions of buying and doesn't even want. Just to keep the prices high. This made my blood boil. Am i just being naive, or does it make anyone else cross?

I would love a better machine but i haven't got a snowball's chance in hell when the dealers fix the price or have i? sorry i just wanted to blow off some steam

 

Oh no problem, let the steam out...

I do remember this very discussion not long ago. Concertina prices are high anyway and I actually can´t understand why people are still rising them up.

But pls keep in mind that you can have a lot of trouble with these instruments offered at auctions.

I once bought one and it was such a mess that I was lucky enough to be able to sell it to someone who actually had the skills of repairing it.

As Dana said, the old ones are not always better.

 

Greetings

Christian

[Chris Timson]

That's certainly not Chris Algar. There is one other dealer who bids on ebay and frequently outbids Chris (I've even seen that happen in a live auction when Chris was bidding by phone and the other by proxy). I have been told he is buying primarily for the Irish market and he asks pretty high prices, but sadly he is getting them. I cannot guarantee the truth of that, but I don't believe anyone is actually hoarding.

 

To put things a little bit in perspective, I have a friend who is a violin maker. She asks for - and gets - about 5000 pounds a violin (the bow is extra and can cost rather a lot too). Hers are not the most expensive violins out there by a long way.

 

Chris

[Hooves]

That's certainly not Chris Algar. There is one other dealer who bids on ebay and frequently outbids Chris (I've even seen that happen in a live auction when Chris was bidding by phone and the other by proxy). I have been told he is buying primarily for the Irish market and he asks pretty high prices, but sadly he is getting them. I cannot guarantee the truth of that, but I don't believe anyone is actually hoarding.

 

To put things a little bit in perspective, I have a friend who is a violin maker. She asks for - and gets - about 5000 pounds a violin (the bow is extra and can cost rather a lot too). Hers are not the most expensive violins out there by a long way.

 

Chris

 

 

Its called "Shill Bidding" and we disscussed it some time ago. Its not just concertinas, its everywhere on eBay and I wouldn't be surpised if it happens at live auctions as well.

 

For example, I bid on a bodhran, no other bidders to the last moment (of course), I was outbid. Less than 24 hours later I got a "2nd chance offer" at my highest bid price. Does it not seem strange that a seller has a bidder make a bid, then in less than the required 3 days for a response is reselling the item to you? (and even stranger, the mysterious bidder gets no negative feedback...).

 

5000 pounds a fiddle, I should have become a fiddle maker!

[JimLucas]

5000 pounds a fiddle, I should have become a fiddle maker!

Before committing yourself to that conclusion, shouldn't you check out what that comes down to in a per-hour wage?

[JimLucas]

Its called "Shill Bidding" and we disscussed it some time ago. Its not just concertinas, its everywhere on eBay and I wouldn't be surpised if it happens at live auctions as well.

Shill bidding requires the collaboration of at least two individuals. In neither the situation described by Chris nor that suggested by Gilly does that seem to be the case.

 

It's already been said... if the high bidder can resell the instrument without taking a loss, then they alone aren't pushing the prices up. But the way things work on eBay, even if a single individual always bids high, it's the next highest bid which determines the final price, so there in addition to one bidder being willing to pay at least the final price, there has to be at least one other willing to pay almost that much..

 

Not everything that leaves us dissatisfied is necessarily the result of evil conspiracies.

[Christian Husmann]

That's certainly not Chris Algar. There is one other dealer who bids on ebay and frequently outbids Chris.

 

Hello, just to make this clear: no, it´s not Chris Algar and I didn´t intend to make people think that I.

 

To put things a little bit in perspective, I have a friend who is a violin maker. She asks for - and gets - about 5000 pounds a violin (the bow is extra and can cost rather a lot too). Hers are not the most expensive violins out there by a long way.

 

Chris

 

I play the accordion as well and unfortunately I know some extremely high prices for instruments

 

Christian

[yankeeclipper]

There's a conspiracy behind everything that makes me unhappy. But auction bidding - eBay or elsewhere - is an awfully expensive way to drive up the price, because the successful bidder is stuck with the price he has "inflated."

 

Good musical instruments cost good money - get used to it. If you can't pay the market price for what you want, then lower your expectations and buy an entry-level instrument - there are some decent affordable 'tinas out there.

 

And yes, not all old concertinas are good. But a lot of them are - and if you look long enough and hard enough and bother to learn something about them, you might find one. Buying from mail-order auctions like eBay is something of a crap-shoot because you don't have an opportunity to look the concertina over before you buy. That's why you might save money in the long run by working with a reputable dealer whose instruments are priced higher than eBay.

[DavidFR]

Shill bidding requires the collaboration of at least two individuals.

 

If only that were true. It's easy enough to set up multiple ebay accounts and bid on your own items in an untrackable way. I know people who made a practice of this; it decreased the already minimal amount of respect I had for those individuals.

 

Anonymity in the internet age can be a great thing, especially as other devices (ie security cameras) reduce our privacy more and more, but unfortunately this anonomity seems to lead to a great amount of dishonesty as well.

 

-David

[JimLucas]

Shill bidding requires the collaboration of at least two individuals.

If only that were true. It's easy enough to set up multiple ebay accounts and bid on your own items in an untrackable way.

Right.

Instead of "individuals", I should have said "identities", which need to appear to be distinct "individuals".

[yankeeclipper]

A little bird told me that a certain concertina dealer bids for concertinas on ebay that he has no intentions of buying and doesn't even want. Just to keep the prices high. This made my blood boil. Am i just being naive, or does it make anyone else cross?

 

What Gilly describes isn't 'shill bidding.' If a dealer is bidding on concertinas he "has no intentions of buying, and doesn't even want," he runs the risk of getting stuck with them. 'Shill bidding" is anonymously bidding on your own item, which means that if no one tops your bid, you still have to pay the auctioneer's commission (or eBay's fee). Not a very profitable strategy, it would seem. And it would take an awful lot of shill bidding to influence prices on the open market. Simply putting a reserve price on the item accomplishes the same thing, without penalty!

 

There's no point in whining about concertina prices. It's an open market with plenty of competition - auctions, shops, on-line dealers, makers. The price is set by supply (limited) and demand (rising), not conspiracies. Do your homework and find the best deal you can.

 

PS - The eBay website has a useful tutorial on shill bidding which defines the practice and points out the penalties - penalties which no one would be willing to risk who is seriously in the business of selling concertinas online!

Edited June 11, 2007 by yankeeclipper

[Mark Evans]

[There's no point in whining about concertina prices. It's an open market with plenty of competition - auctions, shops, on-line dealers, makers. The price is set by supply (limited) and demand (rising), not conspiracies. Do your homework and find the best deal you can.

 

Absolutely. If you want a vintage instrument, pays yer' ticket and take's yer ride!

[Bruce McCaskey]

For example, I bid on a bodhran, no other bidders to the last moment (of course), I was outbid. Less than 24 hours later I got a "2nd chance offer" at my highest bid price. Does it not seem strange that a seller has a bidder make a bid, then in less than the required 3 days for a response is reselling the item to you? (and even stranger, the mysterious bidder gets no negative feedback...).

I can think of one reason for this that doesn't involve any inappropriate activity on the seller's part and it highlights that one should be very wary of "second chance" offers.

 

Last year I was last-moment outbid on a high-value concertina eBay listing and within 24 hours received two very legitimate appearing "second chance" email offers from the seller, stating the sale had fallen through and he was willing to sell to me at my highest bid.

 

Because of its previous listing on concertina.net I knew the true email address of the seller and contacted him outside of eBay channels for verification. There was no problem with the winning bidder (Chris) and the seller hadn't originated the offers extended to me.

[Chris Timson]

5000 pounds a fiddle, I should have become a fiddle maker!

Before committing yourself to that conclusion, shouldn't you check out what that comes down to in a per-hour wage?

Spot on, Jim. Although, as I say, a violin maker with a high reputation, to make ends meet Corrie works a couple of evenings a week as a bus driver. Few people get rich making instruments (including, of course, our small but heroic band of concertina makers).

 

Chris

[Chris Ghent]

5000 pounds a fiddle, I should have become a fiddle maker!

Before committing yourself to that conclusion, shouldn't you check out what that comes down to in a per-hour wage?

Spot on, Jim. Although, as I say, a violin maker with a high reputation, to make ends meet Corrie works a couple of evenings a week as a bus driver. Few people get rich making instruments (including, of course, our small but heroic band of concertina makers).

Chris

 

As it happens it does not take that many hours to make a violin compared with a concertina. A local violinmaker who sells for around the AUD $8000 mark tells me he has made one in a long week, try that with a concertina. The thing he can't do is sell one a week, whereas at the moment a concertina maker could.

 

Chris

[JimLucas]

As it happens it does not take that many hours to make a violin compared with a concertina. A local violinmaker who sells for around the AUD $8000 mark tells me he has made one in a long week, try that with a concertina. The thing he can't do is sell one a week, whereas at the moment a concertina maker could.

Whereas Sam Zygmuntowicz (along with Jody Kruskal, part of the band Grand Picnic) is said to charge more than 8 times as much for his violins and to have a waiting list comparable the best modern concertina makers. Is the difference in the time he spends? I don't know.

 

And it seems that violin addicts have discussions similar to those we have here regarding comparative instrument qualityand prices, factors driving the prices, etc (The link is to a discussion of Sam and his instruments, but if you read through the posts, you'll find familiar themes and attitudes showing themselves.)

[richard]

Hello

 

I somehow think we have it good....Yes it costs a lot of money to get a great concertina. It is the most I have ever spent for anything beyond a home. It is the only thing I would like to possess to play and make my brief existence a bit sweeter, that costs as much. I have never purchased a car for half of what I have paid for a concertina. I am glad I could manage it and still keep my home and food on the table and still have some money to keep my wife in frillies and toilet water.

 

As my appreciation of concertinas evolved and became deeper the price I was happy to pay for one grew also.

 

My main point may not be comforting to someone who cannot afford a good concertina.....But so many exceptional quality guitars, fiddles and other instruments only start at the price of the best Jeffries, Wheatstone, Dipper, Suttner..etc that I feel thankful that for that price I can hold and play and enjoy the best there is, and afford it gladly.

Edited June 12, 2007 by richard