goran rahm Posted January 8, 2004 Share Posted January 8, 2004 QUOTE (goran rahm @ Jan 7 2004, 01:09 PM) ...what is the ideal button made of and what does it look like? Jim:"The ideal button for you, for me, Alex, or for Rhomylly? " Goran: That actually is one important side of it, firstly related to "design": - Each player may have specific demands related to comfort, and to certain performance needs - an individually 'ideal' button - The maker may have the aim to satisfy as many users as possible with some kind of standard button - an 'ideal' button for the market (and possibly for some of the users but for most of them likely 'a more or less successful compromise') In the first case you could see different ways to satisfaction:...either to provide 'custom made' buttons at individual order....exchangeable buttons in a simple way....easily formable buttons.....button stems with replaceable heads.... In the second case it ought to be of importance to find out what the preferrences among the users are at free choice which may be discovered being so varying that a standard design is not purposeful.... or so different from the habitually choosen one that the standard better be changed. The matter of material could be regarded likewise and added to that comes costs for material and processing, skill requirements, durability, aestetic valuations.... My own opinion on the matter is firstly like I have said many times that most concertina buttons are surprisingly thin (and the keyboards of the English and Duet surprisingly small...) and secondly that this hardly is ideal except for some specific musical situations. This means that it ought to be favourable if there were more varied options available for individual choice of buttons, change of buttons and different standards than the traditionally used ones. Goran Rahm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Dickey Posted January 9, 2004 Author Share Posted January 9, 2004 most concertina buttons are surprisingly thin (and the keyboards of the English and Duet surprisingly small...) Some excellent points Goran, although don't you feel that had these represented a significant problem, then 150 years of natural evolution in design would have produced instruments which were much more preferable to players and in so doing the original concertina as we know it would now be a thing of the past? Natural selection doing it's job as with so many other things in everyday use be they cars or sewing machines or whatever. Or do you have some other reasons for us seeing modern instruments produced in much the same manner as they have been over many,many years with button sizes and keyboards generally of similar dimensions? Practice helps us overcome the limitations in keyboard size and perhaps it is this very size which assists in playing at considerable speeds achieved by the likes of Simon Thoumire, whilst expanding the spaces between buttons will increase the necessary finger travel and slow down the possible playing speed achievable. (I know I'm going to regret this! ) Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Edgley Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Probably you will regret it, as some individuals, unable to convince the world with the "brilliance" of their arguments, prefer to try to convince others with the sheer volume of their verbiage. ( IOW If you can't convince them with brilliance , baffle them with B*******, or something like that.) A point of view, no matter how incorrect, if repeated often enough, will undoubedly convince some. (As you probably have figured out), I agree with you . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goran rahm Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 QUOTE (goran rahm @ Jan 8 2004, 08:56 PM) most concertina buttons are surprisingly thin (and the keyboards of the English and Duet surprisingly small...) Pete:".... don't you feel that had these represented a significant problem, then 150 years of natural evolution in design would have produced instruments which were much more preferable to players and in so doing the original concertina as we know it would now be a thing of the past? Natural selection doing it's job as with so many other things in everyday use be they cars or sewing machines or whatever." Goran:I've said it many times before but of course I don't miss an excuse to say it again..:-)...: What you call "natural selection" is not an infallibility and its relation to 'time' is not easily comprehensible. When looking back however you often can identify some 'rationality' in it. You can easily find that the speed of changes in the flow of *music* is faster than the change of *musical instruments* while the with cars (as an example You use) the change of models runs on faster than the way using them. Accordions have changed a lot more than concertinas during the same 150 years and chauvinists may see this as a proof that "the concertina was perfect from the start"...I would not.... As a matter of fact I am not so surprised that it is unchanged in spite of the unperfection...I am more puzzled by the original design as such although I can easily see explanations...even if not best reasons....for it. One minor correction...I would not say we have 150 years neither of production nor of use of concertinas behind us but rather about 100 years if we count 1830(40) -1930(40). The period after 1930(40) has been more or less a phase of terminal care or artificial respiration but since 'we' are kept alive as well we may be highly satisfied.... but maybe sort of blindfolded regarding the ultimate result... Pete:"Or do you have some other reasons for us seeing modern instruments produced in much the same manner as they have been over many,many years with button sizes and keyboards generally of similar dimensions?" Goran:Just for teasing a little...(British) conservatism combined with the above mentioned inertia in changes of musical instruments in general compared to everyday tools of mass production. The 'British style' concertinas neither really have ever been 'mass produced' comparably to accordions(bicycles, cars,pens...) Pete:"Practice helps us overcome the limitations in keyboard size and perhaps it is this very size which assists in playing at considerable speeds achieved by the likes of Simon Thoumire, whilst expanding the spaces between buttons will increase the necessary finger travel and slow down the possible playing speed achievable." Goran:You mix a couple of issues here. 1) Practise can NOT overcome the "limitations in keyboard size" if/when these limitations are related to human anatomical measures and functions. Darn it!! It may "help" (of course! what else????) and that is the reason that it is so easy to present the motto "Practise more!".. not least since the one who has practised till death never wishes to admit it was in vain or excessive in any way.... 2) NEVER judge or generalize from what a single performer may achive in any kind of skill except 'intraindividually' i.e. what the same individual can do in different comparable situations. 3) The 'English' keyboard certainly is a 'speedy' one, firstly since two hands are used for the same task as often is performed by one. This feature is shared with dulcimers, xylophone, harp.... The keyboard layout certainly is promoting 'speed' as well but the actual result OF COURSE is related to the specific quality of the 'interface' man-tool which inevitably will vary according to the measures of the man and those of the tool in each case. You may have an individually ideal mix just by chance or a fairly successful compromise but absolutely NOTHING says that the traditional keyboard measures present the 'best' compromise...particularly not since demand specifications have never been presented and systematic trials have never been carried out....and furthermore the 'ideal' is related also to the enormously varied musical use... This of course is not different from most other instruments. Only industrial tools may have been subject for such studies. Your computer keyboard is one of them but even here...in spite of the enormous use...'surprisingly' little is done....! Pete:(I know I'm going to regret this! ) Goran: Hope not...but why?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Edgley Posted January 9, 2004 Share Posted January 9, 2004 Goran, are you familiar with Irish bagpipes? They, like concertinas, have reeds, and bellows, and, of course you are intimately familiar with the "drone". That's the part that keeps on with the same note, continuously! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Dickey Posted January 9, 2004 Author Share Posted January 9, 2004 All I can say is that whatever marvellous and extended postulations are expounded, the facts speak for themselves in as much as the concertinas have changed relatively little since they were first made and are still played throughout the world, still made and remain highly regarded. The fact that they have endured speaks loudly for an inspired initial concept and design and rather less of British inertia (basically they just got on with it and did it properly and didn't spend their lives talking or writing about it). Though not a hugely mass-produced item in today's terms, enough were made by mass production methods by such as Lachenal to discover major design flaws (I feel there are none of significance) and the number remaining bears testimony to the design and construction and perhaps fondness with which they were and still are regarded. Doubtless, during the life of the instrument, changes have been tried. Where are the instruments that were produced as alternatives? Like so many evolutionary dead-ends. Notwithstanding that, someone may come up with an instrument or derivation in future which fills the same niche and that will assume the mantle borne by the concertina for so many years. Until such an instrument is produced then I and I feel the majority will remain of the opinion "if it ain't broke don't fix it!" Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goran rahm Posted January 10, 2004 Share Posted January 10, 2004 Pete:"All I can say is that whatever marvellous and extended postulations are expounded, the facts speak for themselves in as much as the concertinas have changed relatively little since they were first made and are still played throughout the world, still made and remain highly regarded." Goran:If we at least try to be objective the "facts...as the concertinas have changed relatively little" in 150 years of course says nothing about their possible (un)perfection. I have earlier presented the 'scissors' as an example of delayed(?) progress - being the same for some thousand(s) years despite 'technology' had admitted earlier development. Concerning "still played.." we certainly have a different outlook.... We have no figures of the active players today compared to 100 years ago but guessing less than 1/1000...anyone who knows how many instruments are produced today? Pete:"The fact that they have endured speaks loudly for an inspired initial concept and design and rather less of British inertia (basically they just got on with it and did it properly and didn't spend their lives talking or writing about it)." Goran: Well...we shall not stay too long in the ethnic/chauvinistic field but the Germans, Italians, Americans have not spent a lot of time for talking and writing either..... still the Accordion(s) have changed a great deal. I rather believe the massproduction, greater financial resources,greater demand from more users, and larger feedback from ambitious 'star' musicians are factors that have promoted the development of accordions compared to concertinas. Pete:"Though not a hugely mass-produced item in today's terms, enough were made by mass production methods by such as Lachenal to discover major design flaws (I feel there are none of significance) and the number remaining bears testimony to the design and construction and perhaps fondness with which they were and still are regarded." Goran:I think you are misinterpreting the impact of these factors. Lachenals was in fact a very small enterprise. Still it is impressing that they and other British concertina makers managed to produce the great variety of models *according to the original concept*...that takes a lot of time and cost too...but the total production was diminutive compared to the accordion industry. We may estimate the total production of 'British style concertinas' during 150 years probably to less than 300.000 while from 1860 till about 1960 the yearly production of accordions likely was more than 500.000. Pete:"Doubtless, during the life of the instrument, changes have been tried. Where are the instruments that were produced as alternatives? Like so many evolutionary dead-ends. Notwithstanding that, someone may come up with an instrument or derivation in future which fills the same niche and that will assume the mantle borne by the concertina for so many years. Until such an instrument is produced then I and I feel the majority will remain of the opinion "if it ain't broke don't fix it!" Goran:The majority never initiates changes except possibly when it votes in an election...or takes part in a revolution....but in the later cases there mostly is someone or a clique ( usually not more or less than 10% in all) that leads the way. Otherwise the majority per se is 'inert' ....Imagine that N.N. (some popular star Anglo performer) started using an odd square novelty instrument with great success...probably 90% of the Anglo players soon would follow the example without consideration even if the particular model would not suit them personally at all.....some might drop out after a while, but still.... So, Pete..You easily find lots of silly tools or other objects around you seemingly choosen by the majority and your 'natural selection' that one would wish were missing totally or reformed to the better.... Goran Rahm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Dickey Posted January 11, 2004 Author Share Posted January 11, 2004 Some good points and well made although I do recall Dave Prebble's comments about his injuries when using scissors instead of shears on his sheep. As to the number of players and new concertinas being made. It would be very interesting to know the figures and also I would guess that the greater percentage of players are using old or antique instruments which I feel says something about the quality of design and (possibly, although not in all cases) the construction. As to the mention of accordions - I feel we are straying of into a very different field here and I did say "Though not a hugely mass-produced item in today's terms". I'm sorry but I still remain of the opinion that if anything significantly better had come along, that is what we would be playing now. Anyway to get back to the original point, what am I going to be making these buttons out of? I made my first aluminium button tonight without making too much of a mess of it. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goran rahm Posted January 11, 2004 Share Posted January 11, 2004 Pete:"I'm sorry but I still remain of the opinion that if anything significantly better had come along, that is what we would be playing now." Goran:In short: 1) It hasn't *come along* except in the form of singular trials so far 2) "we would be playing" only something that had been produced in enough numbers So that is where you/we stand.... Pete:"Anyway to get back to the original point, what am I going to be making these buttons out of? I made my first aluminium button tonight without making too much of a mess of it." Goran:There is reason to make them as light as possible for a start. How much does your button weigh? What measures does it have? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete Dickey Posted January 12, 2004 Author Share Posted January 12, 2004 Goran:There is reason to make them as light as possible for a start. How much does your button weigh? What measures does it have? Without a set of decent scales such as laboratory scales, I can't get an accurate figure for a single button. However when I've finished 20/30 or the full 48 then I'll be able to come up with a more acurate figure weighing them all together. I'll weigh the existing bone buttons then as a comparison. Hmmm.... just had a thought, perhaps the local chemist can weigh just the one of each - perhaps worth asking. Pete Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now