Bach Violin Sonatas

[njurkowski]

Hi all,

I imagine that many EC players have attempted to play some of Bach's unnacompanied violin sonatas and partitas. I'm currently reading through them right now, looking for one to tackle, and was struck with a question about perfomrance practice. How do you handle the 3 and 4 note chords found in many of the slow movements? Obviously, a violin has to roll many of the chords, while a concertina does not. Do you keep the rolls for stylistic reasons, or abandon them since they are unnecessary? Does anyone have any suggestions for recordings of concertinists playing the sonatas (or Bach in general)? Anyone have anything to add about playing Bach on the concertina in general?

 

Thanks,

Nick

[Mike Pierceall]

Hi all,

I imagine that many EC players have attempted to play some of Bach's unnacompanied violin sonatas and partitas. I'm currently reading through them right now, looking for one to tackle, and was struck with a question about perfomrance practice. How do you handle the 3 and 4 note chords found in many of the slow movements? Obviously, a violin has to roll many of the chords, while a concertina does not. Do you keep the rolls for stylistic reasons, or abandon them since they are unnecessary? Does anyone have any suggestions for recordings of concertinists playing the sonatas (or Bach in general)? Anyone have anything to add about playing Bach on the concertina in general?

 

Thanks,

Nick

Dave Townsend and Lea Nicholson have both recorded Bach, to answer the general part of your question.

[Richard Morse]

Does anyone have any suggestions for recordings of concertinists playing the sonatas (or Bach in general)?

Mike Agranoff is a pretty eclectic English player who's performed Bach. Here's a short clip of the Bach Double Concerto in Dm.

 

Here's an arrangement of Bach's Prelude 1 in C Major by Jack Woehr.

 

I believe Ellen Cohn did her dissertation in a Bach piece (I forget which). I've heard her play it several times - simply amazing. I don't think she's ever recorded it.

Anyone have anything to add about playing Bach on the concertina in general?

I've picked through Schirmner's "First Lessons in Bach" books 1&2, many of which are very doable on concertina. Recordings of myself playing Bach are very pretty miserable though. One needs to really play crisply in order get get things sounding well. Phrasing and dynamics also need considerable attention as pieces like those can sound flat very easily otherwise.

 

-- Rich --

[njurkowski]

Thanks for the leads - I'll have to track down some of those recordings.

 

 

Nick

[Delbert Blackketter]

Thanks for the leads - I'll have to track down some of those recordings.

 

Do not overlook Pauline de Snoo as an excellent resource for classical music on EC or Anglo. Her website below includes instruction individually on classical playing. If she has not already addressed Bach specifically for the concertina, I am certain that she would know the best route for a serious approach.

 

http://www.concertina-academy.com/

 

Best of luck on that. Please post a recording of your progress!

 

Del

[JimLucas]

...Bach's unaccompanied violin sonatas and partitas. I'm currently reading through them right now, looking for one to tackle, and was struck with a question about perfomrance practice. How do you handle the 3 and 4 note chords found in many of the slow movements? Obviously, a violin has to roll many of the chords, while a concertina does not.

And once "struck", the violin strings ring independently of each other; it's even possible to play two strings simultaneously at different intensities. On a concertina, the bellows pressure is always applied simultaneously to all notes that are sounding, so the effect is quite different.

 

Do you keep the rolls for stylistic reasons, or abandon them since they are unnecessary?

"Stylistic reasons" relevant to one instrument aren't necessarily relevant to another. On a harpsichord, arpeggiated ("rolled") chords are an occasional ornament, not a "stylistic" necessity wherever chords occur. On the concertina, I usually play the chords "flat", starting all the component notes simultaneously, but I may occasionally roll a chord here or there as the mood strikes me. My view is that arpeggiated chords are not an essential component of the baroque, but an artifact of the violin. And maybe not even that, since with a relatively flat bridge and slack bow it should be possible to bow all the notes simultaneously. But I'm no music scholar, just a part-time musician, and I don't know whether baroque violinists actually did that.

 

Switching from the vaguely general to the personal, I would advise that you try not only the chords but various other details in a number of different ways and then select what sounds best to yourself.

 

Does anyone have any suggestions for recordings of concertinists playing the sonatas (or Bach in general)? Anyone have anything to add about playing Bach on the concertina in general?

Mike Agranoff's recording of the double violin concerto has been mentioned. I've also heard him play the Gavotte and Rondo from the Partita in E, but I don't know if there's a recording of it available. I think he may also play movements of some of the other sonatas and partitas. I don't think it would hurt to inquire.

[Boney]

with a relatively flat bridge and slack bow it should be possible to bow all the notes simultaneously. But I'm no music scholar, just a part-time musician, and I don't know whether baroque violinists actually did that.

Baroque violins did use flatter bridges and slacker bows. I just found a few references:

 

The style of bow used until around the end of the 18th century, particularly in Germany, had the wood curved outwards (away from the hair), which made it somewhat easier to play three notes at the same time. However, most treatises written around the time make it clear that composers did not expect three notes to be played at once, even though the notes may be written in a way as to suggest this. Playing four notes at once is almost impossible, even with older bows.

[njurkowski]

And once "struck", the violin strings ring independently of each other; it's even possible to play two strings simultaneously at different intensities. On a concertina, the bellows pressure is always applied simultaneously to all notes that are sounding, so the effect is quite different.

That's a good point. The very fact that the bellows really don't behave like a bow means the performance has to be different, at a very fundamental level. I just got Allan Atlas' book, and really like his take on the "somewhat false" analogy between the bow and bellows.

"Stylistic reasons" relevant to one instrument aren't necessarily relevant to another. On a harpsichord, arpeggiated ("rolled") chords are an occasional ornament, not a "stylistic" necessity wherever chords occur.

True, but I think that 300 years of performance practice helps to determine what a "standard" way of playing a piece will be. I'm no expert on baroque performance practice, but if the chords have been performed rolled, by and large for the past three centuries, it can be very easy to call any other method "wrong," even if it wasn't originally noted as such in the music - the fact that that's how it was understood to be performed means that that's the way it was meant by the composer to be played. I think that that can extend something that is "stylistic" beyond an individual instrument's idiosincracy into general performance practice, though I don't have specific examples to back that assertian up. Clearly, though, instrumentalists have been trying to figure out ways to mimic the voice for centuries, even though they don't necessarily need to.

The point may be moot, though, since if you're playing Bach on the concertina, you're probably not overly concerned with recreating a period performance. I suppose the best way is, as you said, to try them out. So far, I think I agree that the chords, by and large, sound better played as a block than rolled. Good food for thought.

Mike Agranoff's recording of the double violin concerto has been mentioned. I've also heard him play the Gavotte and Rondo from the Partita in E, but I don't know if there's a recording of it available. I think he may also play movements of some of the other sonatas and partitas. I don't think it would hurt to inquire.

Thanks for the tip - I'll see what I can find.

 

Nick

[njurkowski]

Well, I've been working a bit on a few of the movements from the partitas and sonatas, and recorded and posted one here.

 

It's the Siciliano from the first Sonata, and I'd be anxious to hear what people thought of it. Listening to the recording, there are about ten things that I'd immediately like to change about how I played it, but I think that's always the way it is. It certainly isn't a final draft (as there there were such a thing), but I think the quality is at least fairly consistent through out, and a good start to exploring the piece. I listened to a few recordings as I was working it up, including a guitar recording by Segovia, and tried to (as Segovia does most effectively) adapt the piece to the instrument I was playing, which generally entailed changing some note durations in order to fill out the harmonies in spots. Any comments, suggestions, criticisms are welcome. If anyone else has any postings of them playing similar music, I'd love to hear it. Thanks!

 

 

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[PeterT]

Well, I've been working a bit on a few of the movements from the partitas and sonatas, and recorded and posted one here.

 

It's the Siciliano from the first Sonata, and I'd be anxious to hear what people thought of it. Listening to the recording, there are about ten things that I'd immediately like to change about how I played it, but I think that's always the way it is. It certainly isn't a final draft (as there there were such a thing), but I think the quality is at least fairly consistent through out, and a good start to exploring the piece. I listened to a few recordings as I was working it up, including a guitar recording by Segovia, and tried to (as Segovia does most effectively) adapt the piece to the instrument I was playing, which generally entailed changing some note durations in order to fill out the harmonies in spots. Any comments, suggestions, criticisms are welcome. If anyone else has any postings of them playing similar music, I'd love to hear it. Thanks!

 

 

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Hi Nick,

 

Whilst I'm not familiar with this particular piece, I'd say that your playing shows promise.

 

See also recordings by Juliette Daum (link to her website below); one available to download, the other on her CD. Juliette will shortly be recording a CD which will be exclusively J.S.Bach compositions. I'm looking forward to hearing it!

 

http://www.juliettedaum.com/index.html

 

Regards,

Peter.

[Robin Harrison]

I enjoyed it Nick............well done. Robin

[Robin Harrison]

..................something else if you go here...WIMA: Werner Icking Music Archive (My Webpage) (I think it's a fairly huge site for slow computers) and scroll down , you will find this....(My Webpage),which is the Six Cello Suites transposed to the treble clef, for violin . It's a thrill just to play the first page !

It's sixty pages to print so that's a lot of ink but there it is.There's all sorts of great stuff on this site and it's all free.

Cheers Robin

[njurkowski]

..................something else if you go here...WIMA: Werner Icking Music Archive (My Webpage) (I think it's a fairly huge site for slow computers) and scroll down , you will find this....(My Webpage),which is the Six Cello Suites transposed to the treble clef, for violin . It's a thrill just to play the first page !

It's sixty pages to print so that's a lot of ink but there it is.There's all sorts of great stuff on this site and it's all free.

Cheers Robin

 

 

What a fantastic resource - thanks so much for this, Robin! I also like the look of the arrangements for brass quartet (I'm a trombone player, originally).

 

Nick