*newbie* Concertina Player Wants Some Help

[m3838]

OK. let me jump in.

 

So Anglo:

It's a harmonica with bellows - you squeeze the bellows and get one note, you pull at the bellows and get another. So it's a push/pull instrument, or by-sonoric.

The harmoncas are split in the middle, so you have 5 buttons on one hand (10 notes) and 5 in another. 10 buttons cover 20 notes. Not bad, huh?

 

The useage: folk music that doesn't use black keys (accidentals), which is alot. Dances, where there is need for rhythm, because push/pull provides for very energetic style. Easy chords, because you can play melody with the right hand (higher notes) and chords with the left (lower notes).

 

The problem 1: it's a one key instrument and it's a diatonic (only white keys of the piano, no blacks.)

 

Work around the problem: So they put two harmonicas, in two different keys, in C and in G to allow for more variety. Didn't work. So they added a third row of buttons with accidentals (black keys). More or less OK. Still prefers the "home keys" of C and G, but, if you are good, you can fight the system and get more out of it.

 

The problem 2: Can get out of air in the bellows, if your melody, esp. with accompaniment, is in one direction of the bellows for too long.

 

Solution: the air button. One, who plays Anglo, must be very skilled at "riding" the air button, like a stick shift of an automobile.

 

There are 10 button (rare), 20 button (most), and 30+ buttons (chromatic) instruments.

The keys: C/g, G/d, Bb/Eb etc.

 

English:

Plays the same note on pull and push (uni-sonoric)

Has all the white and black keys (it's "chromatic", like a piano or guitar). Can play all kinds of music, Country AND Western.

 

Useage: Anything, tha doesn't need Oom-pa accompaniment.

 

Problem 1: fingering is jumping between right and left hand, so it's more suitable for one line melody, like a violin or a clarinet, plus some ocasional harmony (two or more notes together). Can't play melody and accompaniment.

 

Work around: Consider the music with accompaniment as one piece and learn accompaniment as part of melody. Sucks.

 

Problem 2: Holding the instrument. Sucks. As though Sir Wheatstone, when working on the handle, got a bad cold and was running out of time. So the distributor had to take unfinished instrument.

 

Solution: Goram Rahm's idea and other intentor's, making the holding reasonable.

 

Types: trebble, tenor, tenor-trebble, bass, baritone.

 

Duet:

Fully chromatic, uni-sonoric.

Line in the Anglo, low notes are on the left, high notes are on the right.

Easly to finger, easy to play melody with accompaniment.

 

Useage: Classical music, and all other genres.

 

Problem: small instruments don't have enough range, too small bellows for full accompaniment, large instruments are too heavy, low notes often override the high notes, making the music sound terrible.

 

Solution: don't know of any

 

Work around: keep the chords short and choppy, don't use full 3-4 notes chords, don't use harmony on the right with harmony on the left, get bigger bellows.

 

Types: McCann, Crane, Hayden.

 

Anglos are most common, then English, then Duets (very few).

With Anglo you don't have to read. English will ask you for it. Duet will demand reading.

 

In a nutshell.

[John Wild]

With Anglo you don't have to read. English will ask you for it. Duet will demand reading.

 

 

I think players will divide into ear-players and sight-readers and those who manage both, whichever system they play.

 

- John Wild

[Richard Morse]

Right, now with regards to what Mr. Morse said - the nonce remark. I don't know what it means in the U.S.A. but over here it is usually used as an insult or slur on someone.... I take it America uses it in the definition of "for the present moment" because if you do, why not just speak plain modern English?

In the US its meaning is "for the moment" or "at the present", and even though a bit old-fashioned I thought it was quicker more polite than saying "I'm not going to reply to the other stuff right now as I just have a few moments here" (which I thought would sound pompous). I certainly never was my intent to be rude/crude/flippant

Oh well, I shall apologize to Mr. Morse, and hopefully likewise will occur as it seems there was a misunderstanding. I am sorry, Mr. Morse.

And I as well! I had no idea of its other meanings and have learned a lot.

I know I could have phrased myself better, and was a little abrasive about my first comment about the concertina companies. But I find it remarkable that a company (e.g. Wheatstones) can have a four year waiting list. How many other companies would you happily wait for 4 years to receive their goods? I bet the answer would really be none.

I'd gladly wait JUST 4 years. I wish. My Wheatstone order is now over a decade long... and still I wait. Such is the quality of his (and Dipper concertinas - or great hand-made violins, guitars, etc.) instruments. There just is so little option to getting such quality that people just have to wait. We're not pleased, but what else can we do besides put up with lesser instruments or pick up some other type of instrument?

I spoke with the guy at Hobgoblin today (London store) as I went there for the English Concertina book. He's saying that there is absolutely nothing wrong with the Stagi instrument, and he is shocked (more disgusted to me) that people are saying that it isn't a good instrument!

It all depends upon one's point of view. That guy is in the business of selling stock and is probably disinclined to bad-mouth anything they sell. I generally call things as I see them - hopefully in a balanced way such that people would be able to come to their own conclusions. I don't have to worry too much about my manager getting on my case for telling it like it is (though he HAS been quite instrumental in my being very aware of the sales consequences).

 

If that guy considers a concertina with uneven key pressure, slow response, uneven sound, reeds 10-20 cents out of pitch, stiff and noisy bellows, etc. to be a "good" instrument and "nothing wrong", then that's his basis. Maybe he means that such quality should be acceptable for a rank beginner and therefore is "good". You'd have to ask him to expound and give comparisons/examples to better understand what he means.

 

My 2 cents on Stagis is (are?) that they are a reasonable price/quality choice for a beginner to intermediate player - providing that their inherent shortcomings are dealt with. Our shop spends between 1/2 hour to an hour dealing with every Stagi before we consider it salable. We also warrant them (WE do, we don't send them "back to the factory").

Although, if I were to order a Norman, and asked for Baritone, would it still be as slow and breathy as a cheap plywood job?

No - the Norman (and all the hybrids) are of much better design, materials and construction.

I agree with the post on the above link [about improved "handles" for the English concertina] because I find the Instrument is uncomfortable, especially the thumb strap and little finger plate.

Many beginners have found holding an EC to be uncomfortable. While I'm not advocating what a wonderful concept/construction that is (or NOT), many people prefer lighter EC's for that very reason. While I don't know how much the Jackie/Jack weighs, it IS a lot larger than typical EC's.

[JimLucas]

I agree with the post on the above link [about improved "handles" for the English concertina] because I find the Instrument is uncomfortable, especially the thumb strap and little finger plate.

Many beginners have found holding an EC to be uncomfortable. While I'm not advocating what a wonderful concept/construction that is (or NOT), many people prefer lighter EC's for that very reason. While I don't know how much the Jackie/Jack weighs, it IS a lot larger than typical EC's.

I have recorded the weight of the Jackie as 1.38 kg (3 lb.). While the ends are larger in size, the relative location and spacing of the buttons, thumb straps, and finger plates is carefully matched to the traditional design, so that "moving up" to a better instrument doesn't require retraining the fingers. Some similar instruments sometimes found on eBay have button arrays which only approximately match the traditional layout, and I don't think (to put it mildly) that their "modification" (I suspect really just a sloppy copy) is superior.

 

Regarding the way of holding the English (thumb loops and finger plates) vs. that of holding the anglo & duet (bar & hand strap), each makes sense for its particular array of buttons. The bar-&-strap design facilitates side-to-side movement of the hand and fingers but restricts forward-&-back movement, and the anglo button layout is relativelly "wide" and "short". The loop-&-plate design limits side-to-side movement of the hand & fingers, but allows extensive forward-&-back movement, and the English button layout is "long" and "narrow". Although my fingers aren't especially long, I have no difficulty with a 64-button English keyboard, which extends 8 "rows" from nearest to furthest. Another row or two would still be reasonable.

 

As for Göran's "handles", or similar designs from others, my personal opinion is that they're like training wheels on a bicycle. They may seem to make things easier in the beginning stages, but they could be a hindrance for more advanced use. (In the bicycle analogy, try tight cornering at high speed with training wheels.) My own recommendation is to develop the muscles of your arms, hands, and fingers to control the instrument. If you seriously work on that and don't succeed, then consider a modification like Göran's.

 

I'm one of the few who has actually tried Göran's handles. He had two instruments with him one year at Witney, an anglo and an English, both with essentially the same handles. My experience -- admittedly only a few minutes, but still more than just speculation -- was that adding the thumb loops to the anglo was helpful, but adding the block/bar and strap to the English gave no advantage and -- at least for my way of playing (with more than 20 years' experience) -- might even be a hindrance.

 

A few others have tried similar, but not identical, modifications. Henrik Mueller has added something like that to his mini Stagi, and he is an expert player, so I would respect anything he says about it, though his and my preferences in an instrument don't entirely coincide. Another person (not a member here) who had added to his English something that resembled Göran's, but with higher blocks, then was complaining about the "inherent" difficulty of reaching the distant buttons on the English. I did some quick measuring and a geometrical calculation and discovered that his blocks were so high that they reduced the length of his reach by at least one row of buttons, maybe two.

 

On the anglo side, one of the differences in Colin Dipper's "Franglo" variant is the addition of thumb loops, while keeping the bar-&-strap. In watching him play -- he's brilliant! -- I can see that he uses them to advantage.

[Dark_Templar]

Sorry Richard...

 

I would have preferred it if you had used the second version of your asnwer originally. Anyway, it's water under the bridge.

 

thanks also for explaining your views on Stagi's, but I think Hobgoblin make sure it is in tune etc before they hand it over. When I went the other day there was a guy downstairs sorting out an instrument.

 

Sorry about before....

 

Right, with regards to m3838 and others. Many thanks. This has clarified it quite a bit. So basically, if I want to play Classical, Folk, and (your all going to gasp) play the rythem for some "rock" songs, then I would need what I have gone for, the English.

 

So, my idea about a different type of hand strap would be to use a sort of Capo system (if anyone doesn't play guitar, a Capo is a metal contraption that locks around the neck, allowing you to play notes differently)

 

If I could build it myself, and if I were able to also build my own 'tina, then I would be able to see if it would work.

 

Basically, I would make it out of Aluminium, which is strong and light, and can be painted. It would be a small block like on the Anglo, with a piece of soft rubber (or covered foam) glued to it (or part of the design) for your palm to rest on.

 

The top piece would be similar (with another piece of rubber or covered foam), but would have to Locking bolts (with the nuts in the bottom piece) So you could adjust it to your hands width. It would look a little like this.

 

 

--------------------------

| |

| |~~~~~~~~~~~

|___|

|----|---------------------

|__________________|

 

So you basically loosen or tighten the bolts untill you can slide your hands in and out, but they don't slide out of it. I reckon this would also give you more pulling and pushing strength on the bellows, as I find the current system to be a pain in the hands (I would say butt, but that doesn't do the pulling/pushing lol)

 

So that is my idea.

 

Oh it didn't come out very well.

 

Something like this.

[Mark Evans]

A number of folks end up making modifications to suit their uses. Check out Henrik's web link (he's made a post on embellishments). Cat plays a mini Stagi and he has made some interesting modifications.

 

Another member, Greenferry has attached velcro to the sharps and flats on her albion as she learns the C scale. It was a shock when I picked it up to try out a tune, but I understood why.

 

What makes it work, makes it work. Concertina and Rock n' Roll...alright!

Edited February 2, 2006 by Mark Evans

[JimLucas]

I would have preferred it if you had used the second version of your asnwer originally. Anyway, it's water under the bridge.

Water under the bridge, but still something we can learn from. Here on C.net tolerance is as appreciated as "politeness", and if you read something that seems offensive it's best to ask about it rather than to assume that offense was intended.

 

For many of us, English is not our first language, and even "American" understands many words and expressions quite differently from "British". One of the milder examples is what in America we call "vest and knickers", which in "English" I understand are called "waistcoat and kneebritches", whereas what Brits call "vest and knickers" are known to Americans as "bra and panties". Of course, misunderstandings can occur in either direction.

 

...if I want to play Classical, Folk, and (your all going to gasp) play the rythem for some "rock" songs,....

You're gonna have to get a lot more "radical" than that to shock us. Try listening to some of Stuart Estell's cuts on the Tune Links page, and check out this Topic. (By the way, that's a Jackie that Agnes is playing.)

[JimLucas]

I would like to know: ...

OK. let me jump in.

Dark_Templar, on many of your questions there are differences of opinion as to the "facts". Often they are based on differences in experience, sometimes on differences in interpretation. As it happens, I disagree with several of Michael's (m3838's) "statements". My purpose here is not to say that he's wrong, but to let you know that there are alternative perspectives. I'm also not going to try to detail my own understandings on every point. Many, if not most, have already been discussed in more than one Topic here on Concertina.net. Searching can sometimes be tedious, but it can also lead you to interesting items you might not have come across in direct answers.

 

So Anglo:

...

The problem 1: it's a one key instrument and it's a diatonic...

Work around the problem: So they put two harmonicas, [and] they added a third row of buttons with accidentals .... ...if you are good, you can fight the system and get more out of it.

I wonder if those on Anglo International (and elsewhere) who play outside the "home" keys feel they're "fighting" the system, rather than "making good use" of it.

 

One different perspective is that what Michael labels "problems" are viewed by some people as "features", which lead them to discover interesting and attractive capabilities of the instruments.

 

...

The keys: C/g, G/d, Bb/Eb etc.

The "home" keys, on an anglo with 30 or more buttons, which -- as Michael indicated -- can also be played in other keys for many purposes. In fact, the C/G concertina is commonly used in Irish music for playing in the key of D.

 

English:Useage: Anything, tha doesn't need Oom-pa accompaniment.

I would say "use", rather than "need".

 

Problem 1: fingering is jumping between right and left hand,...

As a long-time English player, I have always considered that to be at least as much of an "advantage" as a "problem".

 

Can't play melody and accompaniment [at the same time].

Absolutely not true. Difficult -- and probably not worth the trouble -- to play steady rhythm backup chording simultaneously with the melody, but there are many other forms of accompaniment. Check out my own unprofessional examples on the Tune Links page for just a few of the possibilities.

 

Work around: Consider the music with accompaniment as one piece and learn accompaniment as part of melody. Sucks.

One way of looking at it, I suppose. Doesn't suck at all, at least not for me. Much more compatible with my own brain-finger coordination than trying to separate it all into two parts, especially if it doesn't naturally separate in to two distinct parts.

 

Problem 2: Holding the instrument. Sucks.

Although some of Dark_Templar's own comments suggest he may agree with Michael, I find the means of holding the English excellently adapted to the other features of the instrument, quite comfortable, and far easier to control than that of the anglo/duet. At the very least, I would like to add the thumb loops to the anglo/duet.

 

Solution: Goram Rahm's idea and other intentor's, making the holding reasonable.

I wonder if Michael has actually tried Góran's idea, or is just speculating. (I don't know. Maybe he has.) As I noted in another post, I have tried it, and I didn't find it conferred any advantage.

 

(to be continued)

Edited February 2, 2006 by JimLucas

[Dark_Templar]

lol Jim..

 

Not quite Waistcoats and Kneebritches, well maybe a hundred years or so ago.

 

Knickers and vests are undergarments. But I get your point.. Tomatoes etc.

 

With regards to holding the instrument. It probably just depends on the size of your hands, finger length etc.

 

For example, most of the worlds leading guitarists (greatest, most talented, whatever you want to call them) have long, thin "piano" fingers.

[JimLucas]

This is a continuation of my last post,

because otherwise the quote formatting was messed up,

but the problem wasn't in the tags.

I.e., just cutting it in two, without any other changes,

and it was formatted correctly.

Types: trebble, tenor, tenor-trebble, bass, baritone.

Many variations in range, including "piccolo", an octave higher than the standard "treble", but "treble" (violin range), "tenor" (or "tenor-treble"; viola range) and "baritone" (an octave lower than "treble"; range between viola and cello) are the common ones. Others are rare. Anglos also come in other ranges ("baritone" - down an octave; "piccolo" - up an octave), but they're rare. And the range of G/D anglos is related to that of C/D anglos somewhat like that of a "tenor" English to a "treble" English. "Tenor", "baritone", and "piccolo" duets also exist, but they're very rare.

 

Duet:

Fully chromatic, uni-sonoric.

Line in the Anglo, low notes are on the left, high notes are on the right.

Easly to finger, easy to play melody with accompaniment.

Depending on the arrangement. And though I also play duets, my brain still seems to find the English fingering much easier and "natural" than that of the duets. (I know that there are others who find the opposite; my point is simply that people differ.)

 

Useage: Classical music, and all other genres.

All genres. But that's true of all the concertinas.

 

While I believe the duet (usually Maccann) was used by performers more than other types of concertina to play adaptations and arrangements of classical orchestral music, even among the best professionals that was only a small part of the repertoire. There is a tradition of Maccann duet playing in England that seems to be disconnected from the folk traditions, but I also know a couple of Maccann players who do wonderful "folk" music on their instruments. The Triumph (same as Crane) duet was widely promoted by the Salvation Army for hymn playing, though it also saw other uses.

 

Problem: ... low notes often override the high notes, making the music sound terrible.

Not true in all cases. I certainly don't find it so in recordings I've heard of Alexander Prince, nor when I've listened to David Cornell.

 

Solution: don't know of any

One should adapt the arrangement to the instrument's characteristics, not try to use the instrument to do something for which it isn't suited and then blame the instrument.

 

Work around: keep the chords short and choppy, don't use full 3-4 notes chords, don't use harmony [melody?]on the right with harmony on the left,...

I consider those to be techniques, not "work arounds". Even between piano and guitar, it's rare that an arrangement can or should (note: opinion) be trasferred note-for-note. Any arrangement should be developed on and for the instrument on which it is to be played.

 

Types: McCann, Crane, Hayden.

Also Jeffries, and various others which are very rare or even unique.

 

...Duets (very few).

How few is "very" few? 10? 100? 1000? How many people a currently playing duets? Certainly not fewer than 50. Almost as certainly, not more than 5000. My own estimate -- actually a broad enough range to qualify as a "guess" -- is between 200 and 1000. I believe we have at least 20-30 who have identified themselves as such here on Concertina.net, and I -- one person -- personally know at least 10 more.

 

With Anglo you don't have to read. English will ask you for it. Duet will demand reading.

One doesn't "have to" read with any of them, but one can read with all of them. I play some of each, and with each I sometimes read and sometimes don't. This is true of any instrument.

 

Dark_Templar, whatever choices you make, I wish you enjoyment.

[m3838]

Good points Jim.

You are right in all of your remarks. I'm just glad I'm not taking introductory class from you. Sometimes people get so specific, they cut into little details too early.

My way of working is something like this:

1. " A violin is a weird guitar, that you hold in your teeth and wave your arms about it, so it makes music"

2. "Well, actually you hold it with your chin and use this stick with horse hair to make scratchy noises"

etc.

Many years later:

n. "well, you just have to feel the pain and the music will follow"

[Dark_Templar]

Thanks everyone...

 

I had a look on that list of events/clubs etc and there isn't one in London, so can I assume this means that there are no clubs in London.

 

Anyway. I would like to know if anyone knows where I can get Drunken Sailor. Classic.

[JimLucas]

I had a look on that list of events/clubs etc and there isn't one in London, so can I assume this means that there are no clubs in London.

Or that the list is incomplete. No folk clubs at all in London? Doesn't seem right to me, though it's years since I've been there looking for one.

 

I would like to know if anyone knows where I can get Drunken Sailor.

Are you looking for written music, or recordings to listen to?

[Dark_Templar]

Both Jim.

[PeterT]

Thanks everyone...

 

I had a look on that list of events/clubs etc and there isn't one in London, so can I assume this means that there are no clubs in London.

 

Anyway. I would like to know if anyone knows where I can get Drunken Sailor. Classic.

 

 

For clubs/sessions etc., try the following Hobgoblin link:

 

http://www.hobgoblin.com/hobnob/main.php?p...0and%20Sessions

 

Sort by club, or session, for London. There is a link from this site, to Folk London, which gives additional opportunities.

 

You may well have to ring around to find something to your liking, but I can assure you that music is still happening in London. Someone, somewhere, will be able to offer you the help that you need to "get started".

 

Regards,

Peter.